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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
ringo
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Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 16 of 1255 (857096)
07-05-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
07-05-2019 9:21 AM


Re: Nope.
Faith writes:

Could you please sketch out the arguments "centuries ago" that "determined" there was no worldwide Flood.


Could you please sketch out how you distinguish One Big Flood from lots of little floods?

Suppose somebody asked you what happened to all of the food that came in the back door of a restaurant. Your reply was, "A giant ate it." How do you know it was One Giant and not a lot of ordinary people?


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 07-05-2019 9:21 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:31 AM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31282
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 17 of 1255 (857102)
07-05-2019 2:17 PM


If there was a Biblical Flood, no one noticed.
There has been continuous occupation at the current site of Damascus, Jericho and Aleppo for at least 10,000 years.

The current location of Athens has been occupied for at least 7000 years.

The areas known as Plovdiv in Bulgaria, Faiyum in Egypt, Byblos & Sidon in Lebanon as well as many other major settlements have existed for well over 6000 years.

The folk there never noticed the flood and there is no evidence of the flood at any of those locations.

Only the delusional, willfully ignorant or utterly dishonest think that either of the Biblical Flood stories ever really happened.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:24 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 1255 (857143)
07-06-2019 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
07-05-2019 2:17 PM


Re: If there was a Biblical Flood, no one noticed.
Yes, in order to argue for the [ONE] biblical Flood the secular-science timing of all those locations is disputed. And on good grounds too: it's all conjecture that can't be tested except by reference to similar conjectures.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 1255 (857144)
07-06-2019 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
07-05-2019 12:06 PM


Re: Nope.
What can I say, ringo. I've tried to clarify this so many times that making another attempt brings on a wave of hopelessness. There is simply no comparison with a local flood and it's hard for me to see how anyone would make the comparison at all. It's quantity for starters but the whole is also much greater than its parts in a way that's hard to describe. Does constant rain for forty days and nights sounds like it can be compared to a local flood? Multiply by millions the runoff from high places in a local flood, and the saturation of the hills in a local flood that produces mudslides that bury things, and then consider that the ocean water is soon going to rise up over the land area and completely cover it. Not to mention that tons of sediment will be collecting in the ocean water in the early phases too. And whatever "the fountains of the deep" are is probably going to contribute something to its uniqueness though since I don't really know what that refers to I don't know what.

Oh well, that's a start but I got such a sinking feeling about how nothing I say will ever get anything across to anybody I have to stop.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31282
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 20 of 1255 (857145)
07-06-2019 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
07-06-2019 9:24 AM


Re: If there was a Biblical Flood, no one noticed.
Faith writes:

Yes, in order to argue for the [ONE] biblical Flood the secular-science timing of all those locations is disputed.

But to dispute those dates requires willful ignorance or dishonesty just as denying that there are two mutually exclusive flood stories in the Bible requires willful ignorance or dishonesty.

Why hasn't anyone ever actually provided any evidence to show they have more than their willful ignorance or dishonesty?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:24 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:41 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 1255 (857146)
07-06-2019 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
07-05-2019 11:40 AM


You are expecting to see the marks of a bottleneck as we would see it today, in which there is such a genetic depletion, down to homozygosity for a huge percentage of loci there is hardly any capacity for further evolution. But I thlnk that at the time of the Flood all living things would have still had a great deal of their original genetic diversity so that although the bottleneck would reduce some of it to fixed loci, it wouldn't be noticeable to us and there would still be an enormous capacity for further variation.

I've explained this a million times before and I know you've seen it but you don't llke it so you pretend I never said it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2019 11:40 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 1255 (857147)
07-06-2019 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
07-06-2019 9:36 AM


Re: If there was a Biblical Flood, no one noticed.
Well, all you have for your dates is subjective shuffling of whatever historical events you ***** you know.

And it's time Percy put you on a ********** diet as he has done to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 07-06-2019 9:36 AM jar has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 1255 (857148)
07-06-2019 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2019 11:20 AM


Re: Then there is the matter of Index Fossils
No, but the insult is noted.

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 Message 14 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2019 11:20 AM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 1255 (857150)
07-06-2019 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2019 10:03 AM


Re: By Faith from
The Greenland ice sheet didn't exist before the Flood, was probably the result of the ice age that followed the Flood.

It is true that the timing of tree rings and ice cores has to be wrong if the Flood is true so I put those in the column on your side for now. Sedimentary layers of course are far more easily explained as the product of the Flood than they are the natural occurrence over hundreds of millions of years. You either see it or you don't.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 26 by PaulK, posted 07-06-2019 10:09 AM Faith has responded
 Message 34 by Larni, posted 07-06-2019 10:56 AM Faith has responded
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 07-06-2019 11:00 AM Faith has responded
 Message 46 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-06-2019 3:40 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6583
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 25 of 1255 (857151)
07-06-2019 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-06-2019 9:50 AM


Re: By Faith from
was probably the result of the ice age that followed the Flood.

Not much of an age if it only lasted a few hundred years at most. Also, how come there is no historical record of this post flud ice age?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
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Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 26 of 1255 (857152)
07-06-2019 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-06-2019 9:50 AM


Re: By Faith from
quote:

The Greenland ice sheet didn't exist before the Flood, was probably the result of the ice age that followed the Flood.

The Greenland ice sheet is a lot older than you say your Flood is.

quote:

It is true that the timing of tree rings and ice cores has to be wrong if the Flood is true so I put those in the column on your side for now.

Along with every other dating method used by archaeology and geology.

quote:

Sedimentary layers of course are far more easily explained as the product of the Flood than they are the natural occurrence over hundreds of millions of years.

Don’t be ridiculous. Aside from the sheer volume, the time required for lithification, the fossils, the evidence of arid conditions, the heavy erosion of some strata - and more all point to long periods of time as the explanation rather than a single Flood.

quote:

You either see it or you don't.

You don’t see it, you just fantasise it. But ignorant day-dreams are no substitute for real science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 10:22 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 1255 (857154)
07-06-2019 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by PaulK
07-06-2019 10:09 AM


Re: By Faith from
Sedimentary layers of course are far more easily explained as the product of the Flood than they are the natural occurrence over hundreds of millions of years.

Don’t be ridiculous. Aside from the sheer volume,

No problem with volume. You just have the usual extreme underestimation of the size of the Flood.

the time required for lithification,

No problem under the weight of the huge stack of sediments.

the fossils,

The fossils are the best evidence for the Flood of all since it would have provided the conditions for the fossilization of bazillions of dead things.

the evidence of arid conditions,

The arid conditions occurred before the Flood which merely carried the material and deposited it.

the heavy erosion of some strata

The ones I'm aware of clearly occurred after the strata were laid down.

- and more all point to long periods of time as the explanation rather than a single Flood.

Yeah I know that's the establishment view, and I'd have to put in more time than I feel like doing to make my case.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 1255 (857155)
07-06-2019 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Theodoric
07-06-2019 10:05 AM


Re: By Faith from
Who said the ice age only lasted a few hundred years? I ***** it's still receding.

Oh there's a record of it, only it's misinterpreted in terms of multiple ice ages over a much longer period.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Theodoric, posted 07-06-2019 10:05 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Theodoric, posted 07-06-2019 10:30 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6583
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 29 of 1255 (857159)
07-06-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
07-06-2019 10:24 AM


Re: By Faith from
Who said the ice age only lasted a few hundred years?

You obviously have no idea what the term "ice age" means. So glacial ice didn't create the lakes in Minnesota? Your jesus daddy poofed them into existence?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 10:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20119
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 30 of 1255 (857163)
07-06-2019 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
07-06-2019 9:24 AM


Re: If there was a Biblical Flood, no one noticed.
Yes, in order to argue for the [ONE] biblical Flood the secular-science timing of all those locations is disputed. And on good grounds too: it's all conjecture that can't be tested except by reference to similar conjectures.

Disputed by opinion, not by facts, is nothing more than a (re)statement of opinion/s.

If you want to dispute "the secular-science timing" of the measurements of age, then you need to do so at Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 and the information in Message 2 through Message 4 where the minimum age of the earth is determined through annual ring growth in Bristlecone Pines, Irish Oaks, German Oaks and German Pines, each one confirming the previous set of data and then extending it. The minimum age of the earth is 12,405 years based on these tree rings that grew undisturbed by any flood.

Remember your response (from 03-14-2014), Message 278:

No, RAZD, I can't explain it to support the Flood, it's good evidence for your side, so I leave it at that for now.

and later (from 10-09-2018), Message 844:

No, there's no point in speculating. I've usually put the many-ringed trees in the column against the Flood. There's a pro column and an anti column.

It's been over 5 years since you first acknowledged your inability to dispute the facts of annual tree ring age. Since that time the evidence continues to mount against a Noachin Flood:

quote:
(The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1), Message 3)

the "Schulman's" tree(3) (my name for the tree because Edmund Schulman took the core samples and he was a pioneer in dendrochronology in the area), with an minimum germination date of 3051 BCE

(3) - Anon, Wikipedia.com (website), Oldest Trees, last modified 18 December 2013,[2013, December 27]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees


That's 5069 years ago and no evidence of a flood.

In Message 853 you said:

I figure I would have to personally examine the tree rings very closely to arrive at a meaningful theory.

Listen, I know the Flood happened, I accept the date of 4500 years ago, so just because I can't explain a given phenomenon says nothing about what really happened.

Your problem is not just to explain the annual tree ring counting system and any errors you perceive in it, but to explain the correlations of the different sets of data and with recorded history. See The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1), Accuracy and Precision in Dendrochronologies Compared to Historical Events:

quote:
So we have another historical calibration date of 2660 BCE with 98% consilience between history and European oak chronology. ...

That's 4618 years ago and no evidence of a flood.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


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