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EvC Forum ⇒ Science Forums ⇒ Intelligent Design ⇒

Chance as a sole-product of the Universe

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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
ringo
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Posts: 19733
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

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Message 217 of 263 (857186)
07-06-2019 12:19 PM 		Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
07-06-2019 11:57 AM

Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

... you humans claiming divine status.

quote:
Genisi3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil....
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 07-06-2019 11:57 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 07-06-2019 12:21 PM ringo has replied
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 08-21-2019 3:35 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19733
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

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Message 220 of 263 (857191)
07-06-2019 12:27 PM 		Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
07-06-2019 12:21 PM

Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

*sigh*....we've been down this road umpteen million times...but I guess we can revisit it.


*sigh* Yes we have. Why do you have such a short memory?

Phat writes:

First of all, who is "us" (in your opinion as to the clear implied meaning of the text)


It appears that the authors of that fictional story were not as finicky about the idea of multiple gods as you are. If nothing else, it suggests that the Bible is not 100% consistent.

But what has that got to do with you constantly calling God a liar?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 07-06-2019 12:21 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 07-06-2019 12:42 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19733
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

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Message 222 of 263 (857197)
07-06-2019 12:59 PM 		Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
07-06-2019 12:42 PM

Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

You seem to push the idea that the Bible taught polytheism in the story of Job.


I didn't mention Job at all.

Phat writes:

...in my opinion....


Your opinion doesn't matter.

Phat writes:

... keeping in mind that you have no clue what I do, could do, or have done.


You keep in mind that I have your post - which I quoted - as a clue.

Phat writes:

Explain to the peanut gallery how I call God a liar.


In Message 216, you said, "... you humans claiming divine status." But it isn't us humans claiming divine status. It was God who said we were like Him:
quote:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil....

Not us. God.
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 07-06-2019 12:42 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Phat, posted 07-06-2019 1:05 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19733
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

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Message 224 of 263 (857201)
07-06-2019 1:13 PM 		Reply to: Message 223 by Phat
07-06-2019 1:05 PM

Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

My point is that God foreknew that we were going to become "like Him"...


Foreknowledge has nothing to do with it. He said, "the man is become as one of us...."

"IS". A done deal.

And it does not say He foreknew anything.

Phat writes:

Since there is clearly only One God...


No, that is not clear at all.

Phat writes:

... don't even try to argue that we are as much gods as God is God.


Nobody said anything about "how much" we are like God.

Phat writes:

You will lose.


You have already lost, time and time again. You can not back up what the apologists and commentators have told you because it contradicts what's in the book.
All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Phat, posted 07-06-2019 1:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
  
ringo
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Posts: 19733
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

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Message 238 of 263 (861464)
08-21-2019 3:56 PM 		Reply to: Message 235 by Phat
08-21-2019 3:35 PM

Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

And all that Genesis 3:22 says is that we humans gaine the knowledge of knowing both good and evil. This is hardly giving us any sort of divine status nor elevating us into Deity status.


It says, "The man has now become like one of us." That's pretty clear.

Phat writes:

In my mind, the evidence these days shows that we are not clear on which is which.


Funny you should start caring about evidence all of a sudden.

It's true that there isn't always a clear-cut distinction between good and evil. Most things have good aspects and bad aspects. It can be difficult to choose the best course in a specific situation because we have to weigh the good against the bad.

The same apparently applies to God, which would explain why he sometimes changed His mind.

Phat writes:

There is no such thing as chance. My problem is that I want to force Gods will (through prayer and pleading)to favor me...a desire that i am in no power to bring about.


The problem is that you want to attribute the results to God - and when you lose, you have trouble reconciling the God-is-on-your-side myth with reality. In fact, it is about chance. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.

Phat writes:

Dont you ever think about your need to retire and realize that you cant count on the state or the people to support you?


I am retired and I am counting on the people to support me.
"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie
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 Message 235 by Phat, posted 08-21-2019 3:35 PM Phat has not replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19733
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

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Message 254 of 263 (861579)
08-23-2019 12:11 PM 		Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
08-23-2019 12:08 PM

Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

You say that God lied. I say that the answer surely *must* be deeper, since we already know that God cannot lie nor would have any need to lie.


How do we know that?
"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie
This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 08-23-2019 12:08 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 08-23-2019 12:14 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19733
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

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Message 256 of 263 (861585)
08-23-2019 12:18 PM 		Reply to: Message 255 by Phat
08-23-2019 12:14 PM

Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

Scripture tells us.


Scripture also tells us that God lied and the snake told the truth.

Phat writes:

There is no rational reason nor need for God to lie.


There is no rational reason for 66 books (chosen more-or-less arbitrarily) to agree 100% in every detail.
"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie
This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Phat, posted 08-23-2019 12:14 PM Phat has not replied
  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19733
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8

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Message 261 of 263 (861613)
08-23-2019 5:29 PM 		Reply to: Message 258 by Phat
08-23-2019 2:59 PM

Re: Not A Chance
Phat writes:

And the serpant did not tell us the whole truth.


That doesn't give your apologists licence to make up more "truth" to fill in the gaps.

Phat writes:

We became "like God" or like one of us...only in that we became aware of the difference between good and evil.


How is a raven like a writing desk? It only needs to be in one way. If "like" meant in every way, a raven would be a writing desk.

Phat writes:

It is patently ridiculous for any created thing to become "like God".


That's patently false. We were "created in His image" means exactly that we are like Him.
"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie
This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 08-23-2019 2:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
  
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