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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
PaulK
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Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 31 of 1255 (857164)
07-06-2019 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
07-06-2019 10:22 AM


Re: By Faith from
quote:

No problem with volume. You just have the usual extreme underestimation of the size of the Flood

Do you have actual figures ? Of course not.

quote:

No problem under the weight of the huge stack of sediments.

The usual estimates account for pressure which is required. Evidence that a relatively small pressure increase can speed lithification by several orders of magnitude ?

quote:

The fossils are the best evidence for the Flood of all since it would have provided the conditions for the fossilization of bazillions of dead things.

And long periods of time explain even the numbers better. Your “best evidence” is evidence against you. Try thinking about that.

quote:

The arid conditions occurred before the Flood which merely carried the material and deposited it.

You do invent some crazy fantasies. How does that work ?

quote:

The ones I'm aware of clearly occurred after the strata were laid down.

in your crazy fantasies. You have never come up with any evidence or even an explanation that makes sense.

quote:

Yeah I know that's the establishment view, and I'd have to put in more time than I feel like doing to make my case.

You’ve had years to do it. And you still have nothing but fantasies and denial.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 10:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 32 of 1255 (857167)
07-06-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
07-06-2019 9:40 AM


Faith writes:

I've explained this a million times before and I know you've seen it but you don't llke it so you pretend I never said it.

You've made up a story a million times before which is utter shit.

You'll notice that if someone says something that does not contradict settled science and is backed by credible evidence, it's not discussed again. But if someone makes stuff up on the hoof that is patently unevidenced bullshit and flies in the face of known facts, we tend to keep on saying it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 10:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 1255 (857168)
07-06-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
07-06-2019 10:44 AM


Yeah, well I do expect the logic of it to make sense to some but it doesn't and I don't care any more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 07-06-2019 10:44 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 07-06-2019 11:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Larni
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Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 7.2


(4)
Message 34 of 1255 (857170)
07-06-2019 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-06-2019 9:50 AM


Re: By Faith from
Hold on, where in the Bible does it say there was an ice age?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 11:01 AM Larni has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20119
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 35 of 1255 (857171)
07-06-2019 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-06-2019 9:50 AM


Re: By Faith from
... Sedimentary layers of course are far more easily explained as the product of the Flood than they are the natural occurrence over hundreds of millions of years. You either see it or you don't.

Correction

Sedimentary layers of course are far more easily explained as the natural occurrence over hundreds of millions of years than they are the product of the Flood. You either see it or you don't.

This is because the temporal-spatial matrix of all known fossils supports the long term deposition of sediments and fossils, and not the jumbled mess of flood debris. Even just the relative ages of the sediments and fossils from fully developed ecologies adds up to a minimum period well in excess of a single year of flooding. See Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?. In addition each layer correlates with radiometric dates consistent with extreme age (even just using the current present amounts of radioactive material and ignoring for now the validity of calculated dates) and not the jumbled mess of flood debris.

... . You either see it or you don't.

Indeed.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 11:08 AM RAZD has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 1255 (857172)
07-06-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Larni
07-06-2019 10:56 AM


Re: By Faith from
It doesn't say there was a Greenland either, or a North America or continental drift. Putting together a scenario for the Flood has to take into account whatever seems to apply as long as it doesn't contradict the Bible, and I don't see how any of that does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Larni, posted 07-06-2019 10:56 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Larni, posted 07-06-2019 4:47 PM Faith has responded
 Message 87 by Theodoric, posted 07-07-2019 10:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32935
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 1255 (857175)
07-06-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by RAZD
07-06-2019 11:00 AM


Re: By Faith from
Yeah I know, but a whole stack miles deep of such neat flat straight layers of different kinds of specific sediments just doesn't fit with the vagaries of everyday llfe, which llfe we llve on a pretty jumbled-up dirt surface, which is what I'd expect of all periods in the history of the earth myself.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 07-06-2019 11:00 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31282
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 38 of 1255 (857177)
07-06-2019 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
07-06-2019 9:41 AM


Re: If there was a Biblical Flood, no one noticed.
Faith writes:

Well, all you have for your dates is subjective shuffling of whatever historical events you ***** you know.

Yet more utter bullshit from you Faith.

What we have is absolute evidence in the form of artifacts and a variety of separate lines of dating that again rely on reality.

There is no question about either the fact that those sites show continuous occupation for over 6000 years or that there are two mutually exclusive flood stories in the Bible.

To deny either requires either willful ignorance or utter dishonest or severe delusion to the extent of being totally disconnected from reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:41 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 39 of 1255 (857183)
07-06-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
07-06-2019 10:47 AM


Faith writes:

Yeah, well I do expect the logic of it to make sense to some but it doesn't and I don't care any more.

There's no logic in it, you just made up a story.

The story you made up could be called a hypothesis, but then you'd need evidence to support it. And the evidence does the opposite. So it's just bullshit.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 10:47 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
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Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 40 of 1255 (857184)
07-06-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
07-06-2019 9:31 AM


Re: Nope.
Faith writes:

There is simply no comparison with a local flood....


Why not?

Faith writes:

It's quantity for starters....


Every particle is deposited individually, so there's no fundamental difference between a small pile of particles and a big pile of particles.

Faith writes:

Does constant rain for forty days and nights sounds like it can be compared to a local flood?


Yup.
quote:
"From 1939-40, Maunawili Ranch on the island of Oahu saw 331 straight days with measurable rain...." link

Faith writes:

Multiply by millions....


I'm not asking you to imagine a really big flood. I'm asking you how you would distinguish the results of a really big one from a million little ones. Specifically. What would be different?

We see lots of little floods as they happen and we see the layers that they deposit, so we know very well what little-flood layers look like. We see the same kind of layers all over the world, whether we saw them being deposited or not. We do not see any "special" layers that can not be explained by the little floods that we see all the time. So how can you tell, specifically, which ones were deposited by little floods and which ones were deposited by The Big Flood?


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 9:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12812
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 1255 (857185)
07-06-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
07-05-2019 9:04 AM


Re: Thinking the Flood really happened is just stupid!
Would you say that the flood stories were parables and teachable moments? What was the motive of the stories being recorded?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 07-05-2019 9:04 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by edge, posted 07-06-2019 12:26 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 44 by jar, posted 07-06-2019 2:34 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 07-06-2019 2:39 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 42 of 1255 (857190)
07-06-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 12:10 PM


Re: Thinking the Flood really happened is just stupid!
Would you say that the flood stories were parables and teachable moments? What was the motive of the stories being recorded?

Are you talking about the flood story of the Bible or all of the many flood stories told throughout history? There are probably many reasons for the stories and some are simply historical recollections such as the annual floods of the Nile River.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 12:10 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 12:29 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12812
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 1255 (857192)
07-06-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by edge
07-06-2019 12:26 PM


Re: Thinking the Flood really happened is just stupid!
Good point,. I'll never win this argument because though most apologists believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, I need to somehow defend the absolute idea of God found in its pages from the numerous other definitions of God, god, and GOD proposed by innumerable religions, philosophies and assertions. I think I will just stick to my basic arguments that I make in my own words as my understanding grows.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by edge, posted 07-06-2019 12:26 PM edge has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31282
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 44 of 1255 (857206)
07-06-2019 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 12:10 PM


Re: Thinking the Flood really happened is just stupid!
Phat writes:

Would you say that the flood stories were parables and teachable moments? What was the motive of the stories being recorded?

I would say they are most certainly propaganda, another Just So Story and marketing. They explain why there are rainbows but also sell the concept of an all powerful despot that can kill everything but then picked YOUR ANCESTORS as something special and so saved.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios � � My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 45 of 1255 (857208)
07-06-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 12:10 PM


Re: Thinking the Flood really happened is just stupid!
I think the question is which Flood stories you are talking about. The Biblical version is an amalgam of two variants of an older story, going back at least to the Sumerians.

The compiler of the Biblical story may have had quite different motives from the original creator of the story.

One question to ask yourself is why were two differing versions merged together, not by creating a fully harmonised synthesis of the two but by keeping two versions of some of the events.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 12:10 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
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