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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 677 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 2370 (857246)
07-07-2019 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Pollux
07-06-2019 9:31 PM


Re: Ice cores
"No evidence of *A* flood there," sigh. The whole stack was laid down by *THE* Flood. There's a lot of stuff said that supposedly proves "there's no evidence of a Flood" that is just silly when there's that huge stack of sediments as the elephant in the living room, but as I said I'm putting the ice cores on your side anyway and sticking to evidence that I thlnk is very good FOR the Flood, and there's plenty of evidence without the ice cores.

And even all that data has to be interpreted because nobody watched the ice cores form. That's the thing about the sciences of the past, it isn't like lab science where your results can be replicated and are pretty much irrefutable if done right, it's all a one-way projection into the past that can't be replicated or tested.

One thing that's certain from the Creationist point of view is that lots of things were very different before the Flood than they are now: the whole climate was different, it never rained until the Flood came, and I'm not sure there were even seasons as we know them. And the effects of that would have carried over after the Flood for some period of time too. I can't answer you about the ice cores, so as I said I stick to the stuff that corroborates the Flood until further notice.

And I don't know what poeple at AIG and CMI have said, it's the reasonable conclusion from the Flood though.

I got dragged into this subject and still don't feel up to pursuing it though I've been trying.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 677 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 62 of 2370 (857249)
07-07-2019 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Pollux
07-06-2019 10:07 PM


Re: There's more
Yes all I've got is a lot of speculation aagainst all your data so i'm krazy and you can just dismiss anything I say and that's OK, but about volcanism it looks to me like it all started at the end of the Flood, not before and not during.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 63 of 2370 (857250)
07-07-2019 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
07-06-2019 7:50 PM


Re: By Faith from
quote:

Besides which there is still the problem of the perfect straightness and flatness of the sedimentary layers as well as their simple one-sediment composition in so many cases, that defies the whole idea of such regular deposition over millions of years to be the burial grounds of different collections of fossils.

This “problem” is your fantasy. Consider, for example the Temple Butte Limestone


Within the eastern Grand Canyon, it consists of thin, discontinuous lenses, and relatively inconspicuous lenses that fill paleovalleys cut into the underlying Muav Limestone

Later there is more on these paleovalleys


The Temple Butte strata filling these paleovalleys consist of interbedded mudstone, sandstone, dolomite, and conglomerate – that vary in color from purple, reddish-purple, to light gray. Typically, the paleovalley-fill consists of a distinct pale, reddish purple dolomite or sandy dolomite. These paleovalleys range in depth from as much as 100 feet (30 m), to as shallow as 40 feet (12 m)

Jumping back to text dealing with the remaining area


Within the western and central parts of the Grand Canyon, the Temple Butte Limestone consists of a westward thickening layer of interbedded dolomite, sandy dolomite, sandstone, mudstone, and limestone that vary in color from purple, reddish-purple, dark gray, to light-gray.

So, certainly not flat, certainly not consisting of a single type of sediment. And that is far from the first example you have been offered.


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Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3879
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 64 of 2370 (857251)
07-07-2019 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
07-07-2019 3:22 AM


Siberian Traps volcanics at the Paleozoic/Mesozoic boundary
...but about volcanism it looks to me like it all started at the end of the Flood, not before and not during.

The deposition age of the Siberian Traps, one of the largest volcanic events in Earth's history, started in the late Paleozoic and ended in the early Mesozoic. The bulk of Paleozoic sediments (Great Flood deposits to you) are stratigraphically below (older than) those volcanics and the bulk of Mesozoic (Great Flood deposits to you) are stratigraphically above (younger than) those volcanics.

Thus, the volcanic event must have happened during your Great Flood. I offhand find no reference to that the volcanics were a submarine event.

Moose


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PaulK
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Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 65 of 2370 (857252)
07-07-2019 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Minnemooseus
07-07-2019 4:46 AM


Re: Siberian Traps volcanics at the Paleozoic/Mesozoic boundary
And don’t forget the Deccan Traps - formed at the end of the Cretaceous

This snippet is certainly of interest:


The Deccan Traps are famous for the beds of fossils that have been found between layers of lava. Particularly well known species include the frog Oxyglossus pusillus (Owen) of the Eocene of India and the toothed frog Indobatrachus, an early lineage of modern frogs, which is now placed in the Australian family Myobatrachidae. The Infratrappean and Intertrappean Beds also contain fossil freshwater molluscs.

The Intertrappean Beds also contain dinosaur and pterosaur fossils.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 677 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 66 of 2370 (857253)
07-07-2019 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by PaulK
07-07-2019 4:53 AM


Re: Siberian Traps volcanics at the Paleozoic/Mesozoic boundary
I keep putting brackets in the wrong place and losing my post.
\\\

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 677 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 2370 (857254)
07-07-2019 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by PaulK
07-07-2019 4:53 AM


Re: Siberian Traps volcanics at the Paleozoic/Mesozoic boundary
New topics keep getting brought up although I really don't want to be in this discussion any more. I know, however, that if I don't address them at all I'll be accused of running away when I've been shown to be wrong.

But all this has been discussed in the past. Mostly it seems I concluded the traps were either all igneous layers rather than part of the geologic column, or where interspersed were sills and not layers put down in order.

I'm sure you'll object to this but I keep saying I don't want to be on this thread and I need to get off it. I know I may get seduced into feeling I have to answer something nevertheless but I'm going to try to leave now.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 68 of 2370 (857255)
07-07-2019 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
07-07-2019 5:31 AM


Re: Siberian Traps volcanics at the Paleozoic/Mesozoic boundary
quote:

New topics keep getting brought up although I really don't want to be in this discussion any more. I know, however, that if I don't address them at all I'll be accused of running away when I've been shown to be wrong.

Igneous rocks were mentioned earlier and the Siberian and Deccan Traps are massive examples.

quote:

But all this has been discussed in the past. Mostly it seems I concluded the traps were either all igneous layers rather than part of the geologic column, or where interspersed were sills and not layers put down in order.

As usual you make things up in order to dismiss the evidence.

quote:

I'm sure you'll object to this but I keep saying I don't want to be on this thread and I need to get off it.

Of course you do. Your claim to have geological evidence for the Flood is being destroyed yet again. And you don’t want to see that. You just want to pretend it never happened.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 637 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 69 of 2370 (857257)
07-07-2019 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
07-06-2019 11:08 AM


sedimentary layers, Walther's Law,
Yeah I know, but a whole stack miles deep of such neat flat straight layers of different kinds of specific sediments ...

Sorted into different layers of sediment according to Walther's Law, with different coarseness of the sediments and with different fossils in the layers.

Sorted in a way that flood waters do not sort. We've been through this before Faith. Again and again you cherry pick what you think is evidence of a flood and ignore the evidence that contradicts it.

When you have fine grain sediment covered by coarse grain sediments you have an example of long time deposition with a regression (sea level drop), and a pattern that does not happen from sediment falling out of suspension in a mud laden flood. In such cases the larger, heavier grains settle first and the finest grains (silts and clays) settle last, because the rate of settling is related to the size of the particles.

Particle Size Analysis Lab

quote:
The connection between particle size and settling rate is expressed by Stoke's Law. This relationship shows that small particles, those exposing high specific surface area (m2 g-1), produce more resistance to settling through the surrounding solution than large particles and, hence, settle at slower velocities

Stoke's Law: V = (D^2g(d1-d2)/(18n)

The formula shows that the settling velocity, V, is directly proportional to the square of the particle's effective diameter, D; the acceleration of gravity, g; and the difference between the density of the particle, d1, and density of the liquid, d2; but inversely proportional to the viscosity (resistance to flow) of the liquid, n. The density of water and its viscosity both change in a manner so that particles settle faster with increased temperature. Hence, it may be necessary to apply temperature correction factors as explained with the procedure.

Stoke's Law can be condensed to V=kD^2 by assuming constant values for all components except the effective diameter of soil particles. Then, for conditions at 30 degrees C, k=11241. For particles size values in centimeters, the formula yields settling velocity, V, in centimeters per second. Because soil particles do not meet the requirements of being smooth spheres, exact conformance to Stoke's Law is not realized.


One place you see sediments sorted by size is at the mouths of rivers, where coarse grain sediments settle first, near the mouth, and fine grain sediments settle last, far from the mouth of the river.

Note how that fits with Walther's law.

... just doesn't fit with the vagaries of everyday llfe, which llfe we llve on a pretty jumbled-up dirt surface, which is what I'd expect of all periods in the history of the earth myself.

What you'd expect is rather irrelevant. The evidence shows otherwise.

Layers of rock with unconformities, showing that the surface was exposed to erosion, are also common, with evidence of tunneling animals and vegetation roots showing that such exposure was long term event similar to the pretty jumbled-up dirt surface we live on today. We see these unconformities in the Grand Canyon, and they have been discussed in those threads.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : added first image

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 677 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 70 of 2370 (857261)
07-07-2019 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by RAZD
07-07-2019 6:40 AM


Re: sedimentary layers, Walther's Law,
"Sorted in a way that flood waters do not sort."

Yes but this isn't any old flood, this Flood was more like the rising of the sea over the land, and that's the circumstance in which Walther's Law does apply.

Sorry, I'm trying to get off this thread I didn't want to be on in the first place.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 637 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 71 of 2370 (857262)
07-07-2019 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
07-07-2019 7:00 AM


Re: sedimentary layers, Walther's Law,
"Sorted in a way that flood waters do not sort."

Yes but this isn't any old flood, ...

There is no evidence anywhere of any other kind of flood.

... this Flood was more like the rising of the sea over the land, and that's the circumstance in which Walther's Law does apply.

In a transgression (rising sea level) fine layers are deposited over coarse layers, not the other way around, according to Walther's Law.

Sorry, I'm trying to get off this thread I didn't want to be on in the first place.

Because cognitive dissonance makes you uncomfortable in facing evidence contrary to your beliefs.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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jar
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Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 72 of 2370 (857263)
07-07-2019 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
07-07-2019 7:00 AM


Basics Physics
Faith writes:

Yes but this isn't any old flood, this Flood was more like the rising of the sea over the land, and that's the circumstance in which Walther's Law does apply.

But what RAZD posted is NOT Walthers law but rather simple Physics 1010. You have NEVER been able to explain how either of the Biblical Floods stories in the Bible could create millions of alternating layers of fine material and the larger material nor how either of he Biblical Floods could sort objects as found in reality.

Only the willfully ********, utterly delusional or completely ********* can claim there was a world wide flood at any time that humans existed.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 677 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 2370 (857264)
07-07-2019 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
07-07-2019 7:19 AM


Re: Basics Physics
RAZD himself once demonstrated how Walther's Law accounts for the sorting of all the layers in the Grand Canyon area.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 74 of 2370 (857265)
07-07-2019 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
07-07-2019 7:00 AM


Re: sedimentary layers, Walther's Law,
quote:

Yes but this isn't any old flood, this Flood was more like the rising of the sea over the land, and that's the circumstance in which Walther's Law does apply.

Really ? I thought that the whole thing was over in a year. So, not at all like slow changes in sea level.

And the rapid dumping of huge amounts of sediment that you propose doesn’t fit either.

So, no. The standard sequences produced by transgression and regression cannot reasonably be expected from your Flood.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 677 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 75 of 2370 (857266)
07-07-2019 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by PaulK
07-07-2019 7:32 AM


Re: sedimentary layers, Walther's Law,
As long as you can make up "rapid dumping" I can make up "rapid organized deposition." You weren't there and neither was I but the results are there and the Flood did it.

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