Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1141 of 3207 (857233)
07-06-2019 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1140 by dwise1
07-06-2019 7:52 PM


Re: The Gospel Of Materialism in opposition to Intelligent Design
I read it! What I'd said wasn't intended to be anything more than an attempt to say materialism and naturalism are basically the same words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1140 by dwise1, posted 07-06-2019 7:52 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1142 by dwise1, posted 07-06-2019 11:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1142 of 3207 (857240)
07-06-2019 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1141 by Faith
07-06-2019 7:57 PM


Re: The Gospel Of Materialism in opposition to Intelligent Design
quote:
What science uses is Methodological Naturalism. That takes no philosophical position concern the existence of the supernatural nor of any supernatural entities. Rather, it is the very practical realization that science cannot work with the supernatural. Period! That also means that supernaturalistic explanations cannot be used in science because there is no way to even begin to observe or test them.
AdminPhat writes:
Stop with these types of verbal reactions or face suspension.
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1141 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 7:57 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1156 by dwise1, posted 07-07-2019 11:17 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1143 of 3207 (857241)
07-07-2019 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2019 12:23 AM


Re: chances
Sarah Bellum writes:
I've given examples of how extraordinarily complex results can come from quite simple basic stuff. Do you think those examples are fantasies?
Next you'll be claiming that dumb molecules built the nuclear fusion reactor that is our sun and that dumb molecules built the first life-form!
Wait! It gets better - dumb molecules produced a human being!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2019 12:23 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1153 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-07-2019 11:04 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1144 of 3207 (857242)
07-07-2019 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1079 by NosyNed
07-05-2019 1:29 PM


Re: GotGs
NosyNed writes:
God of the gaps has been used to death over the centuries and always ends up looking foolish.
No kidding? Any idea involving God looks foolish to an atheist.
God-of-the-gaps is obviously not a scientific theory, but for some odd reason, you access it according to the rules of science. That's a bad argument.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1079 by NosyNed, posted 07-05-2019 1:29 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1145 of 3207 (857243)
07-07-2019 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1105 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2019 9:49 PM


Re: chances
Sarah Belllum writes:
Beyond the purview? Who knows? Perhaps some day there will be a scientific explanation for such things as why there are three spatial dimensions, why mass and inertia are so closely linked, why there is an imbalance between matter and anti-matter in the universe . . .
Perhaps science will one day explain that mysterious voice that saved my life and that vision of the future I had . as well as countless other miracles that have been reported. But I don' think so. Science can only scratch the surface of reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1105 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2019 9:49 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1146 by Faith, posted 07-07-2019 2:56 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 1152 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-07-2019 10:58 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1146 of 3207 (857247)
07-07-2019 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1145 by Dredge
07-07-2019 1:19 AM


Re: chances
Oooo a mysterious voice and a vision. No, science can't touch anything in that area, so you know their reaction will be simply to impute it to some kind of insanity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1145 by Dredge, posted 07-07-2019 1:19 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1147 by AZPaul3, posted 07-07-2019 6:06 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1177 by Dredge, posted 07-08-2019 2:08 AM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1147 of 3207 (857256)
07-07-2019 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1146 by Faith
07-07-2019 2:56 AM


Re: chances
BCRPS is a recognized scientific disposition that can explain auditory/visual hallucinations in these cases precisely.
Science is not limited by *any* phenomenon humans can experience. We can science anything.
Batshit Crazy Religious Person Syndrome is just another example.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1146 by Faith, posted 07-07-2019 2:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1149 by Faith, posted 07-07-2019 6:56 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 1164 by Phat, posted 07-07-2019 3:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 1178 by Dredge, posted 07-08-2019 2:15 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1148 of 3207 (857258)
07-07-2019 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1133 by GDR
07-06-2019 3:55 PM


Re: chances
I hesitate to respond as this is well above my pay grade. I do confuse the "observer effect" with the "uncertainty principle" and only have the vaguest grasp of either.
Can you in the layest in laymen's terms tell me how consciousness plays into all of that.
Note below in order to be accurate to quantum theory I have to use very belaboured language. Electrons for example don't have positions or momenta. When we measure the surface of a metal certain types of detection screens will develop marks. In common expositions we say that's "where the atoms are", but fully accurately quantum theory only says those marks are just marks on our screens not actually where atoms are. So I can't say "the position of the electron", only "the result of position measurements".
What tends to be called the "observer effect" or similar names in popular expositions is a name for the combination of two aspects of quantum theory. One is the "uncertainty principle" and the other is "state reduction".
The Uncertainty Principle:
The Uncertainty Principle states that there's maximum limit to the ability to predict the results of measurements on quantum systems. It's not possible to be more certain of what will occur than that limit.
If you've already hit that limit the Uncertainty Principle means that any attempt to gain further information about one type of measurement will cause a loss of information about another type of measurement.
So if you've already hit the limit and you try to do a very accurate position measurement, so that you can narrow the range of future position measurements, you'll have made future momentum measurements more uncertain.
Any attempt to get more accurate than the fundamental knowledge limit causes some kind of irremovable disturbance of quantum systems causing a loss of information at least equal to the amount you gained
State Reduction:
This is the part of QM that causes some elements of consciousness to enter popular discussions. State reduction says that when you perform an experiment and obtain a result you update your probabilities.
This isn't very unusual. If somebody has rolled a dice that you haven't seen yet, you give a 1/6 chance to each outcome:
Result:123456
Probability:1/61/61/61/61/61/6
If you then hear that the number rolled was even, you would update this to:
Result:123456
Probability:0.01/30.01/30.01/3
Because of the information you've gained the chance for some results has gone to zero and others have increased to 1/3.
So there is an assumption of some kind of "reasoning agent" who changes their expectations because of what they've learned, but it's not invoking some mysterious power of consciousness. It's unlike classical theories which are written as a description of the world and don't assume the presence of an agent. However this agent is present for the same reason it is in gambling theory: parts of the mathematics represent what they've learned.
Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.
Edited by Son Goku, : Had to put in 0.0 to stop the 0 values from vanishing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1133 by GDR, posted 07-06-2019 3:55 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1168 by GDR, posted 07-07-2019 6:14 PM Son Goku has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1149 of 3207 (857259)
07-07-2019 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1147 by AZPaul3
07-07-2019 6:06 AM


Re: chances
Just for the sake of having some context for your comments, would you tell us if you've ever had a similar kind of experience, a vision or a voice or the ilke?
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1147 by AZPaul3, posted 07-07-2019 6:06 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1157 by AZPaul3, posted 07-07-2019 12:43 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1179 by Dredge, posted 07-08-2019 2:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 1150 of 3207 (857260)
07-07-2019 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1135 by Sarah Bellum
07-06-2019 4:42 PM


Re: chances
In the meantime, consider this: everything in the universe, the locations of every atom, the history of where every atom was throughout history could be encoded as a string of numbers
It can't be, due to what is known as the Kochen-Specker theorem. Atoms don't have positions or histories of where they were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1135 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-06-2019 4:42 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1151 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-07-2019 10:56 AM Son Goku has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1151 of 3207 (857283)
07-07-2019 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1150 by Son Goku
07-07-2019 6:57 AM


Re: chances
I wasn't thinking of any experimental data on the positions of atoms, I was merely thinking of the similar question, "Is the universe just a simulation?" and removing the simulator, leaving a pure number.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1150 by Son Goku, posted 07-07-2019 6:57 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1158 by Son Goku, posted 07-07-2019 1:47 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1152 of 3207 (857284)
07-07-2019 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1145 by Dredge
07-07-2019 1:19 AM


Re: chances
Perhaps there will always be more to learn.
But that is no excuse for superstition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1145 by Dredge, posted 07-07-2019 1:19 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


(1)
Message 1153 of 3207 (857286)
07-07-2019 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1143 by Dredge
07-07-2019 1:01 AM


Re: chances
You, yourself, believe a highly complex intelligence can develop without being built by some intelligent agency. That is, you believe that your god exists.
If you believe that, you cannot claim it is impossible for our material universe (a thing far less intricate than your god) to develop without being built by some intelligent agency.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1143 by Dredge, posted 07-07-2019 1:01 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1235 by Dredge, posted 07-10-2019 1:32 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 595 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1154 of 3207 (857287)
07-07-2019 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1137 by GDR
07-06-2019 5:08 PM


Re: chances
Is the holographic theory anything like the hypothesis that our universe is just "a program on someone else’s hard drive"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1137 by GDR, posted 07-06-2019 5:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1167 by GDR, posted 07-07-2019 6:05 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1155 of 3207 (857288)
07-07-2019 11:07 AM


So Dwise1 gets admonished but Dredge continues as always? Your bias is showing Phat. As always.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

Replies to this message:
 Message 1180 by Dredge, posted 07-08-2019 2:24 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024