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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1198 of 3207 (857384)
07-08-2019 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1197 by Sarah Bellum
07-08-2019 9:20 AM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
I really cannot even say "we" since there is no consensus between believers and non believers. It has been my observation that there is a concerted effort in both camps (mythicists and apologists) to frame an argument. All that I can conclude at this point is that the jury is out. (Tangle is rolling his eyes) I am biased, of course. You cant really tell me that someone is a myth when I have already met them.
And of course I judge the integrity of the authors making the claims rather than the raw facts presented in the arguments. There are many many charlatans in organized religion--Christianity in particular. That much I know. What I also suspect, however, is there are charlatans seeking to discredit the belief. As PT Barnum was quoted, There is a sucker born every minute.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1197 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-08-2019 9:20 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1199 by jar, posted 07-08-2019 9:40 AM Phat has replied
 Message 2486 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-05-2020 6:56 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1200 of 3207 (857392)
07-08-2019 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1199 by jar
07-08-2019 9:40 AM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
You cant really tell me that someone is a myth when I have already met them?
jar writes:
And what evidence is available to support your claim to have met them or that they even exist?
We won't find any objective evidence. If we did, everyone would know. The Bible makes it quite clear that not everyone will in fact know or believe. There will always be more unbelievers than there are believers. Besides, I dont need to make a case in order to satisfy your requirments. You are aware of the same Creator of all seen and unseen that I am.
And when the author or authors are totally unknown what model, method, mechanism, process or procedure is used to determine the integrity of the author(s)?
Integrity is like a virus. We catch it from knowing others. What makes you believe the claimed facts in any book? One answer, of course, is that the math can be replicated and thus objective. When it comes to belief (especially personal belief) there is no method which is objective. Belief was arguably never intended to be objective.
As to the gullibility of believers, I cant really argue against your assertion.
My only question to you is this:
In regards to your understanding of God, are you still forever asking questions or have you arrived at some tentative answers?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by jar, posted 07-08-2019 9:40 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1210 by ringo, posted 07-08-2019 11:51 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1206 of 3207 (857401)
07-08-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1203 by Stile
07-08-2019 10:58 AM


Re: chances
The experts whom I have read say that there is only one important place for god to "exist" or not...and that is in the human heart. Obviously we can only check our own. I propose that the reason that you have never found Him there is because you question the God described and proposed by the experts. I can quote you telling me essentially that you would have to think long and hard before accepting such a God to someone so close to your family, whom you are trying to protect. Thus, the fact that you know that God does not exist is based in part on your blocking Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1203 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:58 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1270 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 12:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1211 of 3207 (857414)
07-08-2019 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1210 by ringo
07-08-2019 11:51 AM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
ringo writes:
You're too soft hearted to see billions and billions of people roasting in Hell for eternity, so when it suits you you like to tell us that everybody will change their mind.
No, I see God changing His Mind. He has always given us more and more opportunities to repent even as we show ourselves (Early Israel and latter day Christians) to be rebellious by nature. People may collectively change their mind out of desperation....global war or famine, for instance...but would that even be a true conversion? More likely is the idea that God will make exceptions to His rules.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1210 by ringo, posted 07-08-2019 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1212 by ringo, posted 07-08-2019 12:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1221 by Theodoric, posted 07-08-2019 2:44 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1223 of 3207 (857469)
07-08-2019 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Theodoric
07-08-2019 2:44 PM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
And how would we even know if God changed His mi9nd or not? God would hypothetically live in the timeframe of infinity. For us, what He does is what He does...period. He came for the Jews than later added the Gentiles. At that time, it was seen by humanity as a changed message preached by humans. It was not perceived as a shift in Gods thinking...for to Him it was all preordained. So from His perspective, He never changes. From our perspective He does what He does. Thus...if God changed His mind we would never know.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Theodoric, posted 07-08-2019 2:44 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1224 by Theodoric, posted 07-08-2019 5:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1227 of 3207 (857600)
07-09-2019 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1212 by ringo
07-08-2019 12:07 PM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
ringo writes:
It doesn't matter whether He changes His mind or not.
It does matter, for the ensuing reality of the situation at hand.
The point is that you can't have your "few are chosen" and not have the remaining many go to Hell.
Yes, and thats the way it stands now...for all intents and purposes. You can whine all you want about how God is autocratic, but He has given us the way out and you claim its too forceful and harsh. As if listening to someone besides your own mind would be such an imposition on your cherished free will.
If God is giving us many opportunities to repent, you have to drop your, "The Bible makes it quite clear that not everyone will in fact know or believe," ploy.
God is giving everyone the same opportunity. he adjusts His grace accordingly at His whim and based on how stubborn people are. it will get to the point, however, where you will have stubborn holdouts---like Theodoric---who say that if *My* God actually existed and was the status quo He--Theodoric--would tell Him to f*ck off! And you could have every single remaining candidate on earth joining in protest over the unfairness of it all--to no avail. Gods judgment is final and requires no consensus from some peanut gallery who can argue that He is a bumbling fool...learning on the job. The fact is that it is all of you--the peanut gallery---who need to learn a lesson in submission to authority. (as do I, I will freely admit)
ringo writes:
"This" is about Phat wanting to have his cake and watch unbelievers roasting in Hell while he eats it.
Actually "this" is about ringo thinking he can use the scripture of what he himself believes to be a made up storybook and successfully argue why the book itself supports his atheistic fable. I'll gladly take your place in Hell if God bores a hole through your thick heads! I know He will rescue me later. And not because I gave enough spare change out to the needy.
I know darn well that I fall short of the standard. Whatever this cake is that you speak is a mystery to me.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1212 by ringo, posted 07-08-2019 12:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1228 by Tangle, posted 07-09-2019 3:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1232 by ringo, posted 07-09-2019 10:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1246 of 3207 (857843)
07-12-2019 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1242 by AZPaul3
07-10-2019 9:18 AM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
They will Nyuk Nyuk the demons right outta ya!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1242 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2019 9:18 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1249 by dwise1, posted 07-12-2019 3:07 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1248 of 3207 (857850)
07-12-2019 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1077 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2019 11:59 AM


Re: chances
There is no intelligent agency carving those beautiful snowflakes from ice crystals, why should there be an intelligent agency carving out the laws of chemistry and physics that produce those snowflakes?
Humans have always looked at the world and seen an intelligent agency where there really was none, from Hephaestus as the reason for volcanoes belching lava and fire to modern-day conspiracy theories.
The deeper we look, year after year, the more we find natural origins as answers to scientific questions. Hypothesizing an intelligent agency somewhere "at the bottom of all of this" doesn't lead to anything that can be objectively checked, just an ever-receding nebulous object of faith.
And yet the humans themselves are the intelligent agency forming a hypothesis on how it all happened...not just geocentrically but intergalactically. In essence we claim no evidence of and no need of a God yet attempt to take that spot of intelligence and observation for ourselves. I feel we limit the possibilities due to our own need for survival and meaning amongst ourselves.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2019 11:59 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1252 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-12-2019 8:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1253 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 11:56 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1254 of 3207 (857882)
07-12-2019 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1253 by ringo
07-12-2019 11:56 AM


The Rationality Of Irrationality
Original sin is really just the origin of death. The cost of separation and awareness is the yoke of death. You will argue that death is a "natural" part of life, but it is not the default option. Humans who don't believe often cite science and observable evidence which we and only we have compiled and interpreted. Why believe in a power greater than ourselves? Especially if we have to be accountable to it. Better to doub that it exists and that even if it did it wouldn't be in our best interests.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1255 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 1:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1256 of 3207 (857884)
07-12-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1255 by ringo
07-12-2019 1:09 PM


Re: The Rationality Of Irrationality
I feel more accountable than you do.
So do you thus believe that it is your job and calling to do what God should be doing if He were either
A) existing...or (and)
B) Existing and consciously interactive amongst humanity.
In other words, you believe that evidence supports no God and thus it is human responsibility to do for the least of these. I get that. Being moderately conservative, I cringe at having to change my cushy lifestyle too much simply to make things even globally and hope for better solutions that allow everyone to be helped while maintaining the comforts that I have now. This, sadly, is my carnal nature. In Spirit, I know that you are on the right track but i'm scared of sacrifice.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1255 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 1:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1257 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 1:20 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1258 of 3207 (857907)
07-13-2019 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1257 by ringo
07-12-2019 1:20 PM


Re: The Rationality Of Irrationality
ringo writes:
the evidence shows that things need to be done and there is no god doing them.
I would hardly call that conclusive. There are many many believers who could vouch for God having done a lot of things in their lives. The default standard need not be scientific objectifiable proof in regards to such matters. How would one go about proving God to begin with?
What gets me is how you can profess to believe in a Jesus who told you to do it.
I don't simply believe in an alien overlord who expects me to snap to attention and do every little thing He asks. I expect a God...in sending His human Son...and giving all authority to this Son...would leave judgement up to Jesus.
Jesus understands human psychology. He knows us better than we know ourselves. He fully understands why you accept Him as fiction and a made up anthropomorphized Deity. He also fully and compassionately understands me as a work in progress. He knows I'm not going to gleefully give from myself according to my ability to those(least of these) according to their need as my liberal friend from Canada claims to be the essence of a human inspired Bible!
Granted you take the message more serious than I do in that you are an ardent proponent of cultural Marxism, or Socialism, or Communism, or whatever you (or we) choose to name it. What I can't believe is the way you do everything that Jesus commands in Matthew 25 and defend Him (and use His words to attempt to indict me) yet you see Him as a myth. You have no place to question the motives of believers when you yourself knowingly and willingly refuse to believe. Human attempts at a fair and just system devoid of God WILL fail eventually. But you may never see it in your lifetime. Go on trusting evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 1:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1259 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 11:46 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1278 of 3207 (858106)
07-16-2019 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1268 by Stile
07-16-2019 12:26 PM


Re: You can't know God through any physical methods
Stile writes:
Evidence is compelling to all reasonable reviews. Always.
And according to scripture, belief is *never* compelling to all or even a majority of humans. Belief will ultimately be embraced by less than 50%.
And there are several arguments in support of Gods existenc. I will bring them up when I get back from the chiropractor...I was on vacation for two days and after all that driving my back needs a tuneup.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1268 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 12:26 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1279 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 4:00 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1290 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1284 of 3207 (858120)
07-16-2019 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1282 by Stile
07-16-2019 4:30 PM


Re: chances
Stile writes:
The idea that Jesus or God exists and is providing purpose for us is a negative for me. It brings me worry and fear. I do not like the idea of being created for a purpose by a supreme being. I find the idea controlling and it gives me a sense of claustrophobia. It makes me feel like our lives are set up as a mouse-and-cheese maze. The cheese being the purpose God or Jesus provides for us, and us being the mouse.
I feel much more relaxed and comfortable with the idea of imagining my own cheese, my own maze, and my own 'mouse' (me) even.
I would thus argue that you have a built-in bias towards finding God. You claim that its a straight forward matter of evidence, but popular apologetic teaching suggests that No One seeks God and that collectively the people turn away from Him.
Show some evidence.
Without that - I know that God does not exist.
It seems to me that many people talked themselves out of believing in God.
It is claimed that the universe itself can spontaneously create itself without need of a Creator. (Even though the theory was birthed in the minds of men) Even though the Bible tells us that we were made in the image of God, humans by nature have historically and persistently acted always in ultimate defiance of such an authority...behaving the way that you suggest you would prefer to do...make your own maze, cheese, and even mouse. The whole idea of proving God is itself a way to thumb your nose at the seeming inability of god to defend himself and thus allowing human wisdom its nefarious place upon the throne.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1282 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 4:30 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1287 by Stile, posted 07-17-2019 9:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1292 of 3207 (858145)
07-17-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1286 by Stile
07-17-2019 9:27 AM


Historical Philosophical Proofs Of God Revisited
Stile,addressing GDR writes:
I can prove that people exist, and that people have feelings, and that people are capable of extraordinary things that some people would call miracles.
And you can "just as easily" prove there is a god?
Feel free.
I'm waiting.
Lets examine some historical arguments. We need to address these first before attempting to dream up any new ones.
St.Thomas Aquinas had his famous Summa theologiae.
He did a pretty good job of stimulating philosophical thought especially in that day and time. Lets address each of the 5 ways using our modern understanding.
5 Ways writes:
Prima Via: The Argument of the Unmoved Mover:
Summary

In the world, we can see that at least some things are changing. Whatever is changing is being changed by something else. If that by which it is changing is itself changed, then it too is being changed by something else. But this chain cannot be infinitely long, so there must be something that causes change without itself changing. This everyone understands to be God.[7][13]
Explanation
Aquinas uses the term "motion" in his argument, but by this he understands any kind of "change", more specifically a transit from potentiality to actuality.[14] (For example, a puddle growing to be larger would be counted inside the boundaries of Aquinas' usage.) Since a potential does not yet exist, it cannot cause itself to exist and can therefore only be brought into existence by something already existing.[1]
*****************************************************
Secunda Via: The Argument of the First Cause
Summary

In the world, we can see that things are caused. But it is not possible for something to be the cause of itself because this would entail that it exists prior to itself, which is a contradiction. If that by which it is caused is itself caused, then it too must have a cause. But this cannot be an infinitely long chain, so, there must be a cause which is not itself caused by anything further. This everyone understands to be God.[13]
Explanation
As in the First Way, the causes Aquinas has in mind are not sequential events, but rather simultaneously existing dependency relationships: Aristotle's efficient cause. For example, plant growth depends on sunlight, which depends on gravity, which depends on mass.[8] Aquinas is not arguing for a cause that is first in a sequence, but rather first in a hierarchy: a principal cause, rather than a derivative cause.[15]
******************************************************
Tertia Via: The Argument from Contingency
Summary

In the world we see things that are possible to be and possible not to be. In other words, perishable things. But if everything were contingent and thus capable of going out of existence, then, nothing would exist now. But things clearly do exist now. Therefore, there must be something that is imperishable: a necessary being. This everyone understands to be God.[7][13]
Explanation
The argument begins with the observation that things around us come into and go out of existence: animals die, buildings are destroyed, etc. But if everything were like this, then, at some time nothing would exist. Some interpreters read Aquinas to mean that assuming an infinite past, all possibilities would be realized and everything would go out of existence. Since this is clearly not the case, then there must be at least one thing that does not have the possibility of going out of existence.[13] However, this explanation seems to involve the fallacy of composition (quantifier shift). Moreover, it does not seem to be in keeping with Aquinas' principle that, among natural things, the destruction of one thing is always the generation of another.[16] Alternatively, one could read Aquinas to be arguing as follows: if there is eternal change, so that things are eternally being generated and corrupted, and since an eternal effect requires an eternal cause (just as a necessary conclusion requires necessary premises), then there must exist an eternal agent which can account for the eternity of generation and corruption. To hold the alternative, namely that an infinite series of contingent causes would be able to explain eternal generation and corruption would posit a circular argument: Why is there eternal generation and corruption? Because there is an eternal series of causes which are being generated and corrupted. And why is there an infinite series of causes which are being generated and corrupted? Because there is eternal generation and corruption. Since such an explanation is not acceptable, there must be (at least one) eternal and necessary being.
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Quarta Via: The Argument from Degree
Summary

We see things in the world that vary in degrees of goodness, truth, nobility, etc. For example, well-drawn circles are better than poorly drawn ones, healthy animals are better than sick animals. Moreover, some substances are better than others, since living things are better than non-living things, and animals are better than plants, in testimony of which no one would choose to lose their senses for the sake of having the longevity of a tree. But judging something as being "more" or "less" implies some standard against which it is being judged. For example in a room full of people of varying heights, at least one must be tallest. Therefore, there is something which is best and most true, and most a being, etc. Aquinas then adds the premise: what is most in a genus is the cause of all else in that genus. From this he deduces that there exists some most-good being which causes goodness in all else, and this everyone understands to be God.[13]
Explanation
The argument is rooted in Aristotle and Plato but its developed form is found in Anselm's Monologion.[17][18] Although the argument has Platonic influences, Aquinas was not a Platonist and did not believe in the Theory of Forms. Rather, he is arguing that things that only have partial or flawed existence indicate that they are not their own sources of existence, and so must rely on something else as the source of their existence.[19] The argument makes use of the theory of transcendentals: properties of existence. For example, "true" presents an aspect of existence, as any existent thing will be "true" insofar as it is true that it exists. Or "one," insofar as any existent thing will be (at least) "one thing."[20] The premise which seems to cause the most difficulty among interpreters of the fourth way is that the greatest in a genus is the cause of all else in the genus. This premise does not seem to be universally true, and indeed, Aquinas himself thinks that this premise is not always true, but only under certain circumstances[21]: namely, when 1) the lesser things in the genus need a cause, and 2) there is nothing outside the genus which can be the cause. When these two conditions are met, the premise that the greatest in the genus is the cause of all else in that genus holds, since nothing gives what it does not have. Since Aquinas is dealing specifically with transcendentals like being and goodness, and since there is nothing outside the transcendentals, it follows that there is nothing outside the genus which could be a cause (condition 2). Moreover, if something has less than the maximum being or goodness or truth, then it must not have being or goodness or truth in itself. For example, how could what has circularity itself be less than fully circular? Therefore, whatever has less than the maximum being or goodness or truth must need a cause of their being and goodness and truth (condition 1).
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Quinta Via: Argument from Final Cause or Ends
Summary

We see various non-intelligent objects in the world behaving in regular ways. This cannot be due to chance since then they would not behave with predictable results. So their behavior must be set. But it cannot be set by themselves since they are non-intelligent and have no notion of how to set behavior. Therefore, their behavior must be set by something else, and by implication something that must be intelligent. This everyone understands to be God.[13]
Explanation
This is also known as the Teleological Argument. However, it is not a "Cosmic Watchmaker" argument from design (see below). Instead, as the 1920 Dominican translation puts it, The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world[2].
The Fifth Way uses Aristotle's final cause. Aristotle argued that a complete explanation of an object will involve knowledge of how it came to be (efficient cause), what material it consists of (material cause), how that material is structured (formal cause), and the specific behaviors associated with the type of thing it is (final cause).[22] The concept of final causes involves the concept of dispositions or "ends": a specific goal or aim towards which something strives. For example, acorns regularly develop into oak trees but never into sea lions. The oak tree is the "end" towards which the acorn "points," its disposition, even if it fails to achieve maturity. The aims and goals of intelligent beings is easily explained by the fact that they consciously set those goals for themselves. The implication is that if something has a goal or end towards which it strives, it is either because it is intelligent or because something intelligent is guiding it.[23]
It must be emphasized that this argument is distinct from the design argument associated with William Paley and the Intelligent Design movement. The latter implicitly argue that objects in the world do not have inherent dispositions or ends, but, like Paley's watch, will not naturally have a purpose unless forced to do some outside agency.[23] The latter also focus on complexity and interworking parts as the effect needing explanation, whereas the Fifth Way takes as its starting point any regularity.[23] (E.g., that an eye has a complicated function therefore a design therefore a designer) but an argument from final cause (e.g., that the pattern that things exist with a purpose itself allows us to recursively arrive at God as the ultimate source of purpose without being constrained by any external purpose).
These arguments seem to make sense to me, but I am no scientist. I am, however, an ardent philosopher and believer. What about these basic arguments would you have qualms about, apart from objective measurable evidence? I would argue that not every philosophical concept can be objectively measured but this in and of itself should not disqualify such a line of thought from reasonable consideration as to relevance.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1286 by Stile, posted 07-17-2019 9:27 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 8:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1293 of 3207 (858146)
07-17-2019 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by ringo
07-17-2019 5:10 PM


Re: chances
The breath of life is more (to me) than simply a biological beginning. It is a purposeful beginning originating from the mind of the Creator. We have a purpose beyond simply making babies.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1294 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:56 PM Phat has replied

  
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