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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 106 of 2370 (857492)
07-08-2019 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
07-08-2019 6:24 PM


If you can't see why it's absrd I can't explain it to you.
Then why are you wasting our time here?
Are you sure that it isn't it absurd just because you say so?
The Flood explains sedimentary layers better.
Then please do so.
You have been saying this for years now, and still no explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 6:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 6:30 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 107 of 2370 (857493)
07-08-2019 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by edge
07-08-2019 6:25 PM


That's a nice technique you have going there, don't think about anything, just question the opponent. I'm not biting. If you have answers give them, if you don't so be it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by edge, posted 07-08-2019 6:25 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by edge, posted 07-08-2019 6:30 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 108 of 2370 (857494)
07-08-2019 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
07-08-2019 6:29 PM


That's a nice technique you have going there, don't ***** about anything, just question the opponent. I'm not biting. If you have answers give them, if you don't so be it.
If you can't answer questions, that's fine with me.
It tells us all we need to know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 6:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 6:31 PM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 2370 (857495)
07-08-2019 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by edge
07-08-2019 6:28 PM


You don't hav to waste your time, just ignore me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by edge, posted 07-08-2019 6:28 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by edge, posted 07-08-2019 6:33 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 110 of 2370 (857496)
07-08-2019 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by edge
07-08-2019 6:30 PM


Gosh another cute zinger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by edge, posted 07-08-2019 6:30 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1705 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 111 of 2370 (857497)
07-08-2019 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
07-08-2019 6:30 PM


You don't hav to waste your time, just ignore me.
That is normally the case. But I see your posts as an insult to everyone here. You only confirm everything said about you lately.
So are we to assume that you have nothing of substance to add to the discussion?
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 6:37 PM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 112 of 2370 (857498)
07-08-2019 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by edge
07-08-2019 6:33 PM


Assume what you like. Your contribution is nothing to brag about.
Aw you feel insulted. Aw.
But it's OK if I feel insulted, blasted, hayted, demeaned and psychologically murdered. Why? Because I'm *wrong* and thlnk you are wrong.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by edge, posted 07-08-2019 6:33 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 07-08-2019 6:53 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 130 by PaulK, posted 07-09-2019 12:21 AM Faith has replied
 Message 134 by edge, posted 07-09-2019 1:57 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 113 of 2370 (857499)
07-08-2019 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Faith
07-08-2019 6:37 PM


No one hates you Faith. They pity you and try to help you learn and try to provide actual reality based evidence for you.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 6:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 114 of 2370 (857503)
07-08-2019 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
07-08-2019 6:24 PM


If you can't see why it's absrd I can't explain it to you.
No. Not allowed. Data, facts, reasoning. Required.
The Flood explains sedimentary layers better.
How better? Details for that better?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 6:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 10:52 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 07-10-2019 12:53 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 115 of 2370 (857504)
07-08-2019 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
07-08-2019 3:41 PM


Faith writes:
But you *are* ignorant of phenomena. For just a few geological examples, you're ignorant of the fact that floods do not sort lifeforms by their degree of difference from modern forms,...
But YOU are "ignorant" of the fact that THIS Flood was not in the slightest comparable to "floods" of the sort that occur now, that the very least its magnitude was millions of such floods combined, but because it was also the rising of the oceans over the land it brought phenomena that couldn't have occurred in a local flood.
Since when is stuff you make up a fact? We don't doubt your ability to argue this all day long because we've seen you do it year after year, but you're never able to support your ideas with evidence constructed into a cohesive framework.
The evidence we do have says that water sorts objects through their interaction with the flow and energy of the water and according to their weight, density and size (shape is also a factor). Water doesn't give special treatment to biological forms, and certainly not by degree of difference from modern forms, which is irrelevant to sorting. There is no way a flood could know that Dimetrodons belong below Triceratops. The amount of water doesn't change these facts. Water flooding onto land doesn't change these facts.
But this is of course all speculative, because there is no way for us to witness what actually happened in the past.
Why do you keep raising issues from scratch as if they'd never been discussed before? This has been rebutted a thousand times. Things that happen leave evidence behind. If the evidence is sufficient then past events can be reconstructed.
You can't and I can't, and your speculations...
Views based upon appropriate evidence are not speculation.
...are based on a false correlation...
You mean increasing difference from modern forms with increasing depth? That's pretty obvious, nothing false about it.
...and have no more authority than mine...
Your ideas are speculations because they are unsupported by evidence, while science's views have validity because they have the support of evidence and weave together into a consistent fabric.
...in which I try to envision how this worldwide drowning of the entire earth could have sorted things as we see it did.
Wasn't the sorting what you called a false correlation just above? If you believe the fossil order of the geologic column is a false correlation, why do refer to the sorting order here as if you accept it?
You say it couldn't but you can't possibly know and your assertions are not at all compelling.
Of course I could possibly know, because I'm familiar with basic scientific principles, like what happens to objects (from the very large to the minute) in water. We've frequently encouraged you to carry out the experiment of stirring a spoonful of soil into a glass of water and seeing how the particles deposit as the water slows from heaviest and largest on the bottom to lightest and smallest on the top. Have you ever done that?
Truly I see the establishment explanation as so nonsensical...
This is why people have become so intolerant of your ignorance, because it has persisted over many years and through presentation of knowledge many, many times. It was quaint 18 years ago, but there's no excuse for it now and hasn't been for quite some time. How objects behave in water is not an "establishment explanation." It's a fact that you can prove to yourself should you ever choose to.
Summary: I'm certainly not ignorant of it, I reject it.
Then you reject something you can prove to yourself at your own kitchen table.
that sediments fall out of suspension heaviest/densest first,
I don't see how I'm ignorant of this or what possible application it has to anything I've said.
You just finished saying you reject it, so you're saying that while you're not ignorant of how sediments fall out off suspension you reject it anyway.
If you don't reject it then you've got a fatal contradiction if you know that particles fall out of suspension heaviest/densest first yet insist on a flood where that didn't happen.
and that the Grand Canyon region is not a record of everything that happened geologically around the world.
I'm quite aware that is the establishment point of view so how can I be "ignorant" of it?
It's the evidence supporting the scientific position that you're ignorant of.
I have a hypothesis that conflicts with the establishment point of view,...
But which has no evidence.
...which is that the GC is simply the most perfect example of what happened around the world at the same time,...
And here is more of your ignorance. First, your ideas about the geologic history of the Grand Canyon region breaks multiple laws of physics, and second, you've been provided much evidence that what happened around the rest of the world was not the same.
...and I have in fact described instances that I think represent that idea.
No, you haven't. This is something you frequently do, falsely claim to have presented evidence.
So just as I keep saying, the view that I'm "ignorant" is really just a way of objecting to my having a different point of view.
Your ideas could only be held by someone maintaining a studied ignorance and a lack of understanding of the evidence.
Yes this one is hard to prove because so much damage has occurred to the strata in most other places than the Grand Canyon, but it's nevertheless my hypothesis and all you're saying is that you disagree with it and think the establishment view is right.
You can form all the unsupported hypotheses you like. Without evidence they are worthless. The best method we have of understanding our world is to gather evidence and interpret it within the context of the laws of the universe. If you're not doing that then you're doomed to failure.
You can offer evidence, but I think your evidence shows something other than you think it shows, which I've argued elsewhere.
Except you haven't argued it elsewhere. What you have done, and continue to do just as you admitted yesterday, is ignore the evidence people present and just repeat your views over and over again.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 3:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 116 of 2370 (857505)
07-08-2019 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by edge
07-07-2019 8:56 PM


Oceanic crust
In order to accommodate the evidence for plate tectonics, YEC postulate catastrophic plate tectonics with the plates moving kms per day. That means as they move away from spreading centres at the mid-ocean ridges new crust has to be formed at a prodigious rate. The crust is 6-11 km thick, so every day at least 100 cubic km lava has to be produced for every km of MOR. That is well in excess of 1,000,000 c km. This has to rapidly cool, and take on the magnetic orientation of the madly oscillating magnetic field of the Earth.
As the plates race away, they steadily take on increasing amounts of deposit from the ocean, carefully sorting it so that there are different fossils close to the MOR compared to further away to make it look like lots of time were involved.
If thinking of that hasn't given you a headache, consider what happens at the subducting end. Currently the plates move down slowly at an angle of about 30 deg, gradually heating as they go deeper. The heating causes alteration of minerals in the crust, which releases water, which in turn lowers the melting point of the surrounding magma. The melted magma works its way up and may eventually erupt as the volcanoes of the Ring of Fire etc. This helps to build the Andes, Aleutian Islands, Japan etc.
Now try to speed up that process about a millionfold. Physics would not allow it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by edge, posted 07-07-2019 8:56 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 8:20 PM Pollux has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 117 of 2370 (857507)
07-08-2019 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Pollux
07-08-2019 8:03 PM


Re: Oceanic crust
Kilometers a day? Has anyone actually said that? IIRC I came up with twenty feet per day. Ten feet on either side of the Atlantic ridge per day. Is that too prodigious a rate for the formation of crust?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Pollux, posted 07-08-2019 8:03 PM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Pollux, posted 07-08-2019 9:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 118 of 2370 (857508)
07-08-2019 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
07-08-2019 6:10 PM


Faith writes:
Of course the experts are right and I'm wrong and all the YECs are wrong...
You forget that as far as YEC views go, you're in a group of one. There aren't any YECs who agree with the specifics of your views regarding biology and the Flood.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 6:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 8:23 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 119 of 2370 (857509)
07-08-2019 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Percy
07-08-2019 8:21 PM


Oh we do share general views about many things. Grand Canyon is one. Though yes I go off on my own contemplations abeyond that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Percy, posted 07-08-2019 8:21 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 07-08-2019 8:39 PM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 120 of 2370 (857511)
07-08-2019 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
07-08-2019 8:23 PM


Faith writes:
Oh we do share general views about many things. Grand Canyon is one. Though yes I go off on my own contemplations beyond that.
Read more carefully. I said there aren't any YECs who agree with the *specifics* of your views, like that many species in the wild can breed with each other, or that sediments turn to rock by drying, or that breeders create new species, or that the Grand Canyon Supergroup tilted while still buried without affecting the layers above, etc.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 8:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 07-08-2019 8:43 PM Percy has replied

  
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