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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
JonF
Member
Posts: 5036
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 271 of 493 (857814)
07-11-2019 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
07-11-2019 2:47 PM


Re: Aabsurdity
But the idea should be pretty clear: the standard explanation of the geo column with its fossils violates any reasonable physical explanation, and I've said why many times.

No, you've said so many times. "Why" would mean addressing proffered physical explanations and detailing the fundamental principle(s) and analysis that invalidate those proffered physical explanations.

We all know you are incapable of that for several reasons.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 07-11-2019 2:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 272 of 493 (857815)
07-11-2019 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Thugpreacha
07-11-2019 2:46 PM


Re: The Vexed Problem for Creationists of Providing Evidence
Thugpreacha writes:

Physical evidence should exist. We need to open a belief based thread to further discuss this stuff, since none of us (believers) can provide satisfactory evidence for our claims.

You've lost me. If you believe physical evidence should exist then why not find it, present it, and discuss it here.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-11-2019 2:46 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Theodoric, posted 07-11-2019 4:26 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6403
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 273 of 493 (857816)
07-11-2019 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Percy
07-11-2019 4:04 PM


Re: The Vexed Problem for Creationists of Providing Evidence
Because the evidence he wants to present is his feelings and word salad that "Pastors" present. Most of these yahoos have no formal training in anything. Why should we trust them even understanding what evidence is?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Percy, posted 07-11-2019 4:04 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 274 of 493 (857817)
07-11-2019 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by JonF
07-11-2019 3:49 PM


What if all the physical evidence was destroyed?
Have I missed it or has anyone addressed the simple problem of how there can be evidence of anything that existed before the Flood simply because all the evidence has been destroyed? I don't accept the dating claims that simply eradicate the whole problem so the problem stands and I don't see how there could be any evidence of such a change. LOTS of changes too, both biological and geological, from longevity, and originally immortality to a decreased degree of health and strength by comparison, a lush environment to a world where there are thistles and thorns and hard work required, and lots of deserts and other uninhabitable places and so on and so forth. Some of the changes probably started at the Fall but since the Flood wiped out that whole world we certainly aren't going to be able to find evidence of that early period, but I also don't see how we'd be able to find evidence of ANYTHING that existed before the Flood. But of course I believe the "fossil record" is the main evidence for all that. But that's been co-opted by the ToE so there's not much hope there.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 280 by edge, posted 07-11-2019 6:39 PM Faith has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 31076
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 275 of 493 (857820)
07-11-2019 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Faith
07-11-2019 4:36 PM


Re: What if all the physical evidence was destroyed?
Think Faith, think.

If the evidence was destroyed there would be evidence of the destruction. Just like we can tell when layers of rock thousands of feet thick are missing.

BUT... the important thing is that not only is the evidence not missing, there is overwhelming evidence that neither of the Biblical Floods ever happened.

Sorry faith but any belief that there was a Biblical Flood is simply silly at best.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios � � My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Faith, posted 07-11-2019 4:36 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4268
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 276 of 493 (857822)
07-11-2019 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
07-11-2019 2:47 PM


Re: Aabsurdity
Even if you all thlnk my views are indefensible, does it really help to assume I didn't come by them honestly?

Since you have, for years here at EvC, insisted you believed the bible over all else when it came to the flud narrative I never considered you were not being honest. Every ad hoc argument, every twisted excuse for reason and logic, was in support of your biblical belief, was it not?

The science is absurd in your view not from any independent study into facts and physics but because it did not conform to your interpretation of your bible, your bronze age mythology. Now you tell us this was a dishonest view?

the standard explanation of the geo column with its fossils violates any reasonable physical explanation

If you knew the facts and physics of the subject you would know this is bull. The reality not just supports the standard explanation but the facts require that explanation.

In any case, it's got nothing to do with my Christian belief, it's entirely my judgment from observation.

If this were true your judgement not just lacks foundation it really sucks. Still trying to give false misleading ad hoc explanations for your failures of judgement.

I'm going to go watch some spiritual stuff.

Yah it's probably too late to learn anything real.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 07-11-2019 2:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 07-11-2019 5:32 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 277 of 493 (857825)
07-11-2019 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by AZPaul3
07-11-2019 5:20 PM


Re: **********
It's really depressing to be so misunderstood, but oh well, I guess I deserve it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2019 5:20 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2019 6:00 PM Faith has responded
 Message 292 by Percy, posted 07-12-2019 9:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4268
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 278 of 493 (857827)
07-11-2019 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
07-11-2019 5:32 PM


Re: Aabsurdity
Didn't mean to depress you.

What was misunderstood?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 07-11-2019 5:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 07-12-2019 9:38 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 279 of 493 (857828)
07-11-2019 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
07-11-2019 2:47 PM


Re: Aabsurdity
Faith writes:

It would be nice if those objecting to my arguments would at least refrain from assuming they understand my motivations, such as that I

...thlnk it absurd because it doesn’t fit your bronze age mythology.

In this context "bronze age mythology" is just a synonym for the Bible, and isn't it true that you believe the scientific view absurd because it is different from what you think the Bible says? What AZPaul3 says seems just a simple statement of your position.

Even if you all think my views are indefensible, does it really help to assume I didn't come by them honestly?

AZPaul3 didn't question your honesty. He said the way you discuss science topics is crazy because you offer "inane ad hoc fantasy explanations" and seem to think that just voicing them lends them validity despite that they're opposed by a mountain of actual facts that you mostly ignore.

He also said something very important, something I noted previously: The way to overcome current science is with stronger science.

That is, you don't overcome millions of facts woven into a broad and consistent fabric by ignoring them or by appealing to religious scripture or by concocting wild ideas uninformed by practical knowledge. You overcome them with more and better facts, or by placing existing facts into a stronger framework of understanding, or through some combination.

In this case the word I use is inherently objectionable...

You mean "absurd?" What is it about name calling in a science discussion that you think has any value?

The standard explanation of the geo column with its fossils violates any reasonable physical explanation, and I've said why many times: straight strata often of a single more-or-less single uniform sediment,...

What evidence do you have that all strata are straight and uniform, and once you've found some, how do you square it with all the evidence people have provided over the years that that's not true of all strata. There's great variety, from straight to crooked, from uniform to highly nonuniform. A granite rock you might see on a hike might look like it's uniform on the surface, but if you cut it flat and polish it up it might look something like this:

...each assigned to a particular time period of millions of years, is far from the usual way things happen in reality: ...

What evidence is telling you that the passage of millions of years doesn't happen in reality?

...when animals die they don't normally get buried at all but here there are all these neat burial arrangements,...

You are correct that the vast majority of life does not get fossilized, but what evidence do you have of "all these neat burial arrangements."

...neat and straight and flat, originally miles deep;...

I think you must have placed this part here due to an editing error, because it appears to be about strata in the middle of a comment about fossilization. Anyway, what is it that you think was originally miles deep?

...conditions for fossilization don't happen the way the explanation assumes either,...

What evidence says that fossilization happens differently than science thinks, and what is the evidence for how it does actually happen?

It's offensive, yes,...

There's nothing offensive in what you say. What's frequently offensive is the behaviors you employ that often act as barriers to constructive discussion that would allow progress so that we wouldn't be where we are now, rehashing the same issues as years ago.

...but not false.

You haven't provided any positive evidence and likely don't have any. What you do actually do is look at the evidence of science and make up fantastical impossible stories that could only be believed in the absence of knowledge of how basic physical processes actually work.

I do understand why you have to smash any claim I might have to reasonable thought of course,...

I continue to encourage you to stop making claims about yourself, because people have the right to rebuttal if you're going to do that. Leave yourself out of the discussion. The fact is that you have become unreasonable and irrational and angry and spiteful and hateful so many countless times that you long ago lost any right to claim you're engaging in reasonable thought.

In any case, it's got nothing to do with my Christian belief, it's entirely my judgment from observation.

Again, don't do this, but since you have, this is an obvious falsehood. You have said many times that it was after you became a Christian and accepted its teachings that you came to understand that evolution and any congruent science must be false.

The glib dismissiveness of so many posts on this subject doesn't invite response.

Don't put the way people react to your bad behavior off on them. This is just more bad behavior.

Find the facts that support your views, present them, discuss them. Leave yourself out of it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 07-11-2019 2:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 07-12-2019 8:49 AM Percy has responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4660
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 280 of 493 (857829)
07-11-2019 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Faith
07-11-2019 4:36 PM


Re: What if all the physical evidence was destroyed?
Have I missed it or has anyone addressed the simple problem of how there can be evidence of anything that existed before the Flood simply because all the evidence has been destroyed?

How convenient for you!

Think about this for just a moment, Faith. How could anything possibly go wrong with this argument?

This flood is so devastating that not a even a pottery shard exists at the base of the flood deposits. Not a footprint or a single tool, nor a foundation. Entire Phyla of creatures disappeared to leave no trace in the pre-flood world. And there is not a shred of evidence for 'fountains of the deep' or galloping continents.

All destroyed.

Nice.

And yet flood sediments can preserve raindrop impressions, coprolites, animal nests and (supposedly) upright trees. Several civilizations even fail to note the passing of the greatest calamity to have ever struck the planet.

Well, this way, you can make up whatever you want and cram it into a Bible story. And some have tried that. Some even say that God just cleaned up the mess.

(God made a mess?????)

And now you tell us that such a maelstrom of flood waters is the only way to lay down regionally extensive 'straight and flat' strata? Miles thick?

Sorry, Faith, but this doesn't even reach the level of snake oil. I truly fret that people can prostitute their religion to this extent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Faith, posted 07-11-2019 4:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Pollux
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 281 of 493 (857833)
07-11-2019 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Percy
07-10-2019 6:58 PM


Lithification
Hi Percy

Daniel Wonderly on page 41 of "Neglect of Geological Data by Creationists" gives a figure of 80,000 to 90,000 years for cementation of 10 metres of limestone under optimal conditions.

Such geology texts that I have do not give a time line.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Percy, posted 07-10-2019 6:58 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Pollux
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 282 of 493 (857835)
07-11-2019 9:34 PM


Where is the Flood layer?
There is no consensus among Flood geologists over where exactly is the evidence left by the Flood, what before, and what after. They seem to all have reasons why their idea is right and others' are wrong.

Phil Senter in the Reports of the National Centre for Science Education from California State University, 2011, goes through the writings of Flood Geologists, and uses the arguments they put forward against various geological levels being from the Flood, to show that NO geological level could be the Flood layer. These evidences include desert layers, palaeosols, volcanic layers. He did not seem to find Faith's arguments .

www.csun.edu The Defeat of Flood Geology by Flood Geology

Something for Faith to read and ponder.


Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by JonF, posted 07-11-2019 10:29 PM Pollux has acknowledged this reply
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JonF
Member
Posts: 5036
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 283 of 493 (857837)
07-11-2019 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Pollux
07-11-2019 9:34 PM


Re: Where is the Flood layer?
Thanks. I haven't seen that for years.

http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Flood%2520geology.pdf


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Pollux, posted 07-11-2019 9:34 PM Pollux has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 284 of 493 (857854)
07-12-2019 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by edge
07-11-2019 6:39 PM


Re: What if all the physical evidence was destroyed?
Good grief, man, all I meant was that there's no way to reconstruct the completely different circumstances before the Flood because as we look around this world now we don't see any evidence of it because it was all wiped out. I may be more inclined to this view because I llve on a desert of course, but I thlnk what we see overall is a wrecked planet which is evidence of the catastrophe, but it's all simply taken for granted as the way things are and always were, and the wreckage is not recognized as wreckage. So the catastrophe that caused it is not recognized. Looking at the wreckage it's impossible to reconstruct a formerly perfect lush green world.

I do agree that all those things preserved in the strata are evidence of that antediluvian world, however, but it's a pretty paltry record.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32184
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 285 of 493 (857856)
07-12-2019 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by edge
07-11-2019 6:39 PM


Re: What if all the physical evidence was destroyed?
Several civilizations even fail to note the passing of the greatest calamity to have ever struck the planet.

The civilizations didn't exist at the time of the Flood, they were built up afterward. There were only eight people on the ark, who disembarked into a thoroughly wrecked planet. Nevertheless their own strength and longevity that characterized all living things in the antediluvian world, including the plant world, enabled them in a fairly short period to grow food and build houses, make pottery and so on. Their progeny spread out over the entire planet during the ensuing years and built settlements and then civilizations. Nimrod was "a mighty man in the earth" who built cities for instance. The various races were formed because families split off to settle different parts of the world in isolation from each other. Civilization grew up mostly in the Middle East and the Far East. Our European ancestors were a pretty uncivilized bunch until the Roman Empire, and then of course Christianity, tamed them. But I digress.

The flood stories we find in various cultures are apparently all that remains of the memories of the Flood from the ancestors of those who built the civilizations. The Bible also reveals that idolatrous religions grew up rapidly too, a major one around the hero Nimrod that spread out over the world according to the book The Two Babylons, and since the world was ruled by Satan and his demon horde they made up the false religions and became their "gods" to be placated too. So the true religion was forgotten, that God mercifully restored for our sake through His calling of Abraham a few hundred years after the Flood. Even Shem, whol was Abraham's great great great grandfather or something llke that, who was one of Noah's sons who had been on the ark, was still alive at that time, and he is credited with passing down the true memory of all that, which Abraham continued to pass down. And yet he came out of an idolatrous family too, who possessed idol statues or dolls (archaeology has a bunch of them) up until the time of Jacob. God took this family and gradually trained them, and after four hundred years of hard labor in Egypt, which had by then grown into a mighty civilization, gave them Moses to write down the truth for them and so on and so forth.,,, ramble ramble ramble ….

Well, this way, you can make up whatever you want and cram it into a Bible story. And some have tried that. Some even say that God just cleaned up the mess.

Yes, well of course I'm giving my own version of the Bible story here, and there is scripture to support a lot of it. It's a story that builds on what is in the Bible so even if it's made up it's made up out of facts given there. I don't know of a story about God cleaning up any mess.

(God made a mess?????)

God made an originally perfect planet. It was human sin that brought on the Flood and THAT made a mess if that's what you mean.

And now you tell us that such a maelstrom of flood waters is the only way to lay down regionally extensive 'straight and flat' strata? Miles thick?

Yes, I thlnk it could only have been formed by the Flood, which would have been fairly quiet and not a "maelstrom," over some months of its covering the planet. I see Pollux is quoting an article which apparently considers the idea that just a llayer or some few specific llayers represent the Flood, but that's such a paltry idea for what a worldwide inundation would have done. It had to build the WHOLE stack because it covered EVERYTHING.

Sorry, Faith, but this doesn't even reach the level of snake oil. I truly fret that people can prostitute their religion to this extent.

I'm sorry I'm not doing a better job of getting across my view of it, including my understanding of the "Bible story,"

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by edge, posted 07-11-2019 6:39 PM edge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Pollux, posted 07-12-2019 6:35 AM Faith has responded
 Message 297 by Percy, posted 07-12-2019 12:05 PM Faith has responded

    
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