Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8915 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-17-2019 2:34 PM
30 online now:
AZPaul3, CosmicChimp, Hyroglyphx, kjsimons, PaulK, Percy (Admin) (6 members, 24 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Happy Birthday: lopezeast0211
Post Volume:
Total: 856,865 Year: 11,901/19,786 Month: 1,682/2,641 Week: 191/708 Day: 18/40 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
818283
84
8586Next
Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 1246 of 1288 (857843)
07-12-2019 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1242 by AZPaul3
07-10-2019 9:18 AM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
They will Nyuk Nyuk the demons right outta ya!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1242 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2019 9:18 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1249 by dwise1, posted 07-12-2019 3:07 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4259
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1247 of 1288 (857844)
07-12-2019 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1244 by Dredge
07-12-2019 12:02 AM


Re: chances
I've been setting this up since Message 1053

It's an altar boy with an e (and maybe a priest) sticking in it.

Damn you're slow.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1244 by Dredge, posted 07-12-2019 12:02 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1250 by dwise1, posted 07-12-2019 3:12 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1264 by Dredge, posted 07-15-2019 2:45 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1248 of 1288 (857850)
07-12-2019 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1077 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2019 11:59 AM


Re: chances
There is no intelligent agency carving those beautiful snowflakes from ice crystals, why should there be an intelligent agency carving out the laws of chemistry and physics that produce those snowflakes?
Humans have always looked at the world and seen an intelligent agency where there really was none, from Hephaestus as the reason for volcanoes belching lava and fire to modern-day conspiracy theories.

The deeper we look, year after year, the more we find natural origins as answers to scientific questions. Hypothesizing an intelligent agency somewhere "at the bottom of all of this" doesn't lead to anything that can be objectively checked, just an ever-receding nebulous object of faith.

And yet the humans themselves are the intelligent agency forming a hypothesis on how it all happened...not just geocentrically but intergalactically. In essence we claim no evidence of and no need of a God yet attempt to take that spot of intelligence and observation for ourselves. I feel we limit the possibilities due to our own need for survival and meaning amongst ourselves.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2019 11:59 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1252 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-12-2019 8:44 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 1253 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 11:56 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3550
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1249 of 1288 (857852)
07-12-2019 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1246 by Thugpreacha
07-12-2019 12:11 AM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
Saint Joseph the Curly was the master of Nyuk-Nyuk, not Saint Moe.

Far more miraculous was Saint Shemp the Howard, whose film career continued on for ten years after his death, hence the miracle (though saints need three, n'est pas?) (see here -- contracts do indeed carry on far beyond the grave).

Oh! A wise guy, huh? Actually, yes, and I have the documentation to prove it.

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!

------------------------------

From memory and Christopher Titus' brilliant 2000 FOX sit-com, Titus (worst theme music ever, a car engine revving), Season 1 Episode 6, "Red Asphalt". He, his Northern Irish girlfriend Erin (she doesn't get mad; she just plants a bomb in your car), and his idjit half-brother Dave are driving home when they get caught in a road rage situation where the guy in the other car has a gun. Erin rummages through her purse and finds a fruit, but Chris stops her immediately, saying inside his neutral place (a common device in the show where he would step outside the action to discuss things with the audience) that there's nothing more dangerous than an Irish woman with a rock or piece of fruit in her hand. Then:


Dave: Look! There's a hitchhiker ahead! Maybe he has a gun!

[Switch to Chris inside his neutral place.]

Chris to audience: Now I know what Moe was always so mad.

BTW, idjit half-brother Dave was played by Zack Ward, now/then grown up, who in A Christmas Story had played the bully with yellow eyes ("Yes! He had yellow eyes!").

Also BTW, being almost half Irish myself I enjoyed those Irish jokes.

Edited by dwise1, : comment about contracts

Edited by dwise1, : hence the miracle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1246 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2019 12:11 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3550
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1250 of 1288 (857853)
07-12-2019 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1247 by AZPaul3
07-12-2019 12:12 AM


Re: chances
Damn you're [Dredge] slow.

Sadly typical of literalists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1247 by AZPaul3, posted 07-12-2019 12:12 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3550
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1251 of 1288 (857855)
07-12-2019 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 793 by Dredge
06-25-2019 9:55 PM


Re: No group is all good or all bad
Dredge writes:

DWise1 writes:

Stephen Miller is Jewish and yet he stridently promotes a white-supremecist agenda in his mis-shaping of immigrant policy in this administration.

An anti-Semitic Jew? They exist and have existed. So what the fuck are you?


So he's trying to promote his and your sub-species - why do you have a problem with that? Are you opposed to the survival and evolution of your own sub-species?

Do please note that Dredge had pulled me out of context by leaving out the second paragraph.

Wow! So you're a forking lower-than-whale-snot white supremacist? Why am I not surprised in the least?

Read Rob Altemeyer's freely available electronic book, The Authoritarians -- available in a few formats, including PDF and audio. He is a retired psychology professor who wrote this book in 2006 when President "Dubya" Bush was the worst president we had ever had -- boy have things changed! He had studied authoritarianism for decades ever since he had failed his doctorate questions on the subject for his doctorate (When you fail a question, you need to go back and research the question, which led to his further research). Most of his published research over the decades was couched in a lot of statistical mathematics, rather normal for the field, but this book was written to be much more accesible to the public.

In his research, he devised a right-wing-authoritarian index (RWA) which he then tied via many surveys to a number of attitudes -- read the book for the details. Furthermore, he noted that "right wing" does not correlate to political affiliation, since members of "left wing" political groups can also rate highly in the RWA index.

High RWA ratings are the white supremacists and other rightests. They are trapped in fear and hate of and for anyone outside of their own immediate group; ie, paranoid xenophobia. Their actions and reactions are based on fear and hate, not on reason. A physical part of their brains, the amygdala, is over-developed far more than in the normal population, meaning that it is overactive. Whenever something bad happens to somebody else (eg, a hurricane, poverty), then they are far more ready to blame the victim. They will immediately and without thought embrace any manipulative politician who proclaims that he agrees with them.

Low RWA ratings are the opposite. They tend much more to use reason; their amygdalas are far less developed. When bad things happen to people, they look to the causes and solutions instead of blaming the victims. And when a manipulative politician proclaims that he agrees with them, they tend to be skeptical.

So there's no wonder that manipulative politicians target the high RWAs, who are much more easy to manipulate -- think of the problem of herding cats or the common wisdom that you want to keep your cattle as dumb as possible (who would ever want a cow who keeps trying to outsmart you?).

Altemeyer also describes some world management simulations that he had spiked with either all high RWAs or all low RWAs. The low RWAs could work together and solve severe global environmental problems, given their attitude of "we're all in this together, so we need to work together." The high RWAs very quickly led to global nuclear war. Backing the simulation up a couple years, the high RWAs still were on the verge of nuclear war, plus they had never done anything at all to solve the major global environmental problems.

It is an interesting and easy read. Be sure to read the footnotes, since most of the material is there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by Dredge, posted 06-25-2019 9:55 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 1252 of 1288 (857861)
07-12-2019 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1248 by Thugpreacha
07-12-2019 2:15 AM


Re: chances
What is intelligence? What is consciousness? What is self-awareness? Why do humans feel this strange need to invent powerful entities that influence and judge all of us? Why is there something rather than nothing?

Lots of tough questions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1248 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2019 2:15 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 1253 of 1288 (857879)
07-12-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1248 by Thugpreacha
07-12-2019 2:15 AM


Re: chances
Thugpreacher writes:

In essence we claim no evidence of and no need of a God yet attempt to take that spot of intelligence and observation for ourselves.


It was God who said it:
quote:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Unless, of course, it was just human authors putting those words into God's mouth....

But then, "I am the way, the truth and the life," would also be words that humans put into a character's mouth.


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1248 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2019 2:15 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1254 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2019 1:01 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1254 of 1288 (857882)
07-12-2019 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1253 by ringo
07-12-2019 11:56 AM


The Rationality Of Irrationality
Original sin is really just the origin of death. The cost of separation and awareness is the yoke of death. You will argue that death is a "natural" part of life, but it is not the default option. Humans who don't believe often cite science and observable evidence which we and only we have compiled and interpreted. Why believe in a power greater than ourselves? Especially if we have to be accountable to it. Better to doub that it exists and that even if it did it wouldn't be in our best interests.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 11:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1255 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 1:09 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 1255 of 1288 (857883)
07-12-2019 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1254 by Thugpreacha
07-12-2019 1:01 PM


Re: The Rationality Of Irrationality
Phat writes:

Original sin is really just the origin of death.


More apologist garbage.

Phat writes:

You will argue that death is a "natural" part of life, but it is not the default option.


It is the default. It is not an option.

Phat writes:

Why believe in a power greater than ourselves? Especially if we have to be accountable to it. Better to doub that it exists and that even if it did it wouldn't be in our best interests.


Stop it. I have told you repeatedly that that is not my motivation. I feel more accountable than you do.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1254 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2019 1:01 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1256 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2019 1:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1256 of 1288 (857884)
07-12-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1255 by ringo
07-12-2019 1:09 PM


Re: The Rationality Of Irrationality
I feel more accountable than you do.
So do you thus believe that it is your job and calling to do what God should be doing if He were either
A) existing...or (and)
B) Existing and consciously interactive amongst humanity.

In other words, you believe that evidence supports no God and thus it is human responsibility to do for the least of these. I get that. Being moderately conservative, I cringe at having to change my cushy lifestyle too much simply to make things even globally and hope for better solutions that allow everyone to be helped while maintaining the comforts that I have now. This, sadly, is my carnal nature. In Spirit, I know that you are on the right track but i'm scared of sacrifice.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1255 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 1:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1257 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 1:20 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 1257 of 1288 (857885)
07-12-2019 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1256 by Thugpreacha
07-12-2019 1:14 PM


Re: The Rationality Of Irrationality
Phat writes:

In other words, you believe that evidence supports no God and thus it is human responsibility to do for the least of these.


the evidence shows that things need to be done and there is no god doing them. So who else is going to do them?

Phat writes:

Being moderately conservative, I cringe at having to change my cushy lifestyle too much simply to make things even globally and hope for better solutions that allow everyone to be helped while maintaining the comforts that I have now.


What gets me is how you can profess to believe in a Jesus who told you to do it.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1256 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2019 1:14 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1258 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 9:24 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1258 of 1288 (857907)
07-13-2019 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1257 by ringo
07-12-2019 1:20 PM


Re: The Rationality Of Irrationality
ringo writes:

the evidence shows that things need to be done and there is no god doing them.

I would hardly call that conclusive. There are many many believers who could vouch for God having done a lot of things in their lives. The default standard need not be scientific objectifiable proof in regards to such matters. How would one go about proving God to begin with?

What gets me is how you can profess to believe in a Jesus who told you to do it.
I don't simply believe in an alien overlord who expects me to snap to attention and do every little thing He asks. I expect a God...in sending His human Son...and giving all authority to this Son...would leave judgement up to Jesus.

Jesus understands human psychology. He knows us better than we know ourselves. He fully understands why you accept Him as fiction and a made up anthropomorphized Deity. He also fully and compassionately understands me as a work in progress. He knows I'm not going to gleefully give from myself according to my ability to those(least of these) according to their need as my liberal friend from Canada claims to be the essence of a human inspired Bible!

Granted you take the message more serious than I do in that you are an ardent proponent of cultural Marxism, or Socialism, or Communism, or whatever you (or we) choose to name it. What I can't believe is the way you do everything that Jesus commands in Matthew 25 and defend Him (and use His words to attempt to indict me) yet you see Him as a myth. You have no place to question the motives of believers when you yourself knowingly and willingly refuse to believe. Human attempts at a fair and just system devoid of God WILL fail eventually. But you may never see it in your lifetime. Go on trusting evidence.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by ringo, posted 07-12-2019 1:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1259 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 11:46 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 1259 of 1288 (857924)
07-13-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1258 by Thugpreacha
07-13-2019 9:24 AM


Re: The Rationality Of Irrationality
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

the evidence shows that things need to be done and there is no god doing them.

I would hardly call that conclusive.

It is conclusive. Poor people exist.

Phat writes:

There are many many believers who could vouch for God having done a lot of things in their lives.


It is not about something vague that is being done "in the lives" of believers. It's about what is not being done in other people's lives.

Phat writes:

The default standard need not be scientific objectifiable proof in regards to such matters.


You don't want that to be the standard because your god doesn't meet the standard.

Phat writes:

How would one go about proving God to begin with?


Easy. Pray for the sick and they're healed - every time.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

What gets me is how you can profess to believe in a Jesus who told you to do it.


I don't simply believe in an alien overlord who expects me to snap to attention and do every little thing He asks.

Then why do you believe? The only source you have for the existence of your alien overlord is the stories that tell you to snap to attention and do every little thing He asks.

Phat writes:

Granted you take the message more serious than I do in that you are an ardent proponent of cultural Marxism, or Socialism, or Communism, or whatever you (or we) choose to name it.


I call it being a decent human being.

Phat writes:

What I can't believe is the way you do everything that Jesus commands in Matthew 25 and defend Him (and use His words to attempt to indict me) yet you see Him as a myth.


Why wouldn't a mythical character understand about being a decent human being? The people who created the myth weren't that much different from me.

Phat writes:

You have no place to question the motives of believers when you yourself knowingly and willingly refuse to believe.


That's exactly why I question the motives of believers. How is your belief anything but an excuse for not being a decent human being?

Phat writes:

Human attempts at a fair and just system devoid of God WILL fail eventually.


Nonsense.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1258 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 9:24 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3984
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1260 of 1288 (857931)
07-13-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1235 by Dredge
07-10-2019 1:32 AM


Re: chances
quote:
Can you name a machine (biological or non-biological) that has been observed to build itself?

What's your working definition of machine in this case?

Edited by Larni, : DVD extras


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1235 by Dredge, posted 07-10-2019 1:32 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
818283
84
8586Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019