Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 87 (8929 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-26-2019 6:36 AM
24 online now:
Faith, PaulK (2 members, 22 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jedothek
Post Volume:
Total: 860,465 Year: 15,501/19,786 Month: 2,224/3,058 Week: 82/516 Day: 3/79 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
45
6
78
...
27NextFF
Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 234 of 1255 (857729)
07-10-2019 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by dwise1
07-10-2019 4:43 PM


That's exactly what I meant by deserving it. And I am practicing stopping my misdeeds. Interestingly only a few of those that get labeled my misdeeds here are really my misdeeds. And there are extremely few if any of them on this thread.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by dwise1, posted 07-10-2019 4:43 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by dwise1, posted 07-10-2019 8:07 PM Faith has responded
 Message 259 by Percy, posted 07-11-2019 10:39 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 1255 (857731)
07-10-2019 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by dwise1
07-10-2019 8:07 PM


Yes you are right I need to work a lot harder. I'm slck of my karma.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by dwise1, posted 07-10-2019 8:07 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by JonF, posted 07-10-2019 8:25 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 238 of 1255 (857733)
07-10-2019 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Sarah Bellum
07-09-2019 4:27 PM


Percy excoriated me in private for the personal focus of my post about the ancient idyuts, and it does sound llke a personal attack when I reread it so I'll say I'm sorry and aim for less personal terms in future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-09-2019 4:27 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-10-2019 10:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 1255 (857736)
07-10-2019 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Percy
07-10-2019 8:55 PM


The Vexed Problem for Creationists of Providing Evidence
I'm not up on the thlnking about how there was rain before the Flood, I've understood the opening of the windows of heaven to refer to the first rain. I'm not sure it matters much since the forty days and nights of rain that began the Flood was far in excess of any other before or after, but it's something to thlnk about.

I've assumed there is no evidence that could be pointed to for the climate differences before and after the Flood, but I'd love to thlnk there is. There was already a big change at the Fall when Adam and Eve were cast out into a world changed from lush abundance to requiring hard labor to grow food and cope with thorns and thistles that apparently hadn't existed before. That may be the time of the biggest change but none of this is crystal clear from scripture as far as I know.

But of course I thlnk the evidence for the Flood itself is enormous and obvious wherever one looks around the Earth, including the strata and a general impression of a wrecked environment, and if that evidence isn't apparent to anyone else after all my arguments there's little hope in my mind that evidence for a climate difference would be apparent either.

I can point to thistles and thorns and the hard work of growing food, but that won't show a change, it will only be interpreted as the way it's always been. What evidence could there be of a former lush environment since it's all been destroyed?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Percy, posted 07-10-2019 8:55 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2019 12:10 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 252 by jar, posted 07-11-2019 8:02 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 07-11-2019 12:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 241 of 1255 (857739)
07-10-2019 10:02 PM


another apology
Percy says I also accused unbelievers in general, or in fact everybody at EvC, of putting yourselves above believers:

Just the way you all put yourselves above us people who believe in God.

This was in the same post to Sarah Bellum I mention above in order to apologize to her personally for a similar offense.

So to the whole board I'm sorry for my personal attack as quoted above, and again I'm aiming to make less personal statements.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 1255 (857740)
07-10-2019 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by JonF
07-10-2019 8:25 PM


Facts, evidence and reason. Give them a try.

See Message 240 "Vexed Problem" above.

I thlnk I have more to address.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by JonF, posted 07-10-2019 8:25 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by JonF, posted 07-11-2019 10:04 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 243 of 1255 (857741)
07-10-2019 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by dwise1
07-10-2019 7:18 PM


Consequences of Error
If I'm using God's word as the basis for my understanding of the age of the Earth, which is possible to calculate from the various time clues given throughout, starting with the pre-Flood patriarchs, then I'm not worried about the consequences of being wrong. I'd worry a lot more if I denied those calculations.

I'm also convinced of the (word Percy won't let me use) of the interpretation of the geological column in terms of the ToE. I know the word sounds especially (another word Percy won't let me use) but I haven't come up with another one yet. Any ideas?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by dwise1, posted 07-10-2019 7:18 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2019 12:19 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 248 by dwise1, posted 07-11-2019 2:33 AM Faith has responded
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 07-11-2019 1:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 1255 (857742)
07-10-2019 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by JonF
07-10-2019 7:25 PM


Re: **********
What say you, Faith? Could your interpretation of the Bible be false?

All of it? What part of it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by JonF, posted 07-10-2019 7:25 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by dwise1, posted 07-11-2019 2:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 250 of 1255 (857755)
07-11-2019 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by dwise1
07-11-2019 2:33 AM


Re: Consequences of Errorth
The question is anything but simple and direct. Yes I'm sure I can be wrong about some points, but the overall interpretation of the main message I'm very sure of because I got it from many teachers.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by dwise1, posted 07-11-2019 2:33 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by dwise1, posted 07-11-2019 12:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 251 of 1255 (857756)
07-11-2019 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by dwise1
07-11-2019 2:33 AM


Re: Consequences of Error
I assume you are talking about spiritual consequences? Karmic consequences? Of being wrong about the age of the earth? I don't thlnk there would be any. Intention is everything and my intention is to serve God with such considerations, and I do it by deriving it from His own revelation too. At the very worst it's an error from ignorance, certainly not intention. Perhaps for that motivation there might be some positive consequences. But I don't know.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by dwise1, posted 07-11-2019 2:33 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 268 of 1255 (857810)
07-11-2019 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by AZPaul3
07-10-2019 2:15 PM


Re: **********
It would be nice if those objecting to my arguments would at least refrain from assuming they understand my motivations, such as that I
...thlnk it (sensored word) because it doesn’t fit your bronze age mythology.

Even if you all thlnk my views are indefensible, does it really help to assume I didn't come by them honestly? That is, I observe the situation and arrive at my view of it. I've described my reasoning from that observation. In this case the word I use is inherently objectionable and I'd llke to have a better one. But the idea should be pretty clear: the standard explanation of the geo column with its fossils violates any reasonable physical explanation, and I've said why many times: straight strata often of a single more-or-less single uniform rsediment, each assigned to a particular time period of millions of years, is far from the usual way things happen in reality: when animals die they don't normally get buried at all but here there are all these neat burial arrangements, neat and straight and flat, originally miles deep; conditions for fossilization don't happen the way the explanation assumes either, and so on.

It's *********, yes, but not false. I do understand why you have to smash any claim I might have to reasonable ******* of course, to avoid the ********* possibility. In any case, it's got nothing to do with my Christian belief, it's entirely my judgment from observation.

=====================\\\I

The glib dismissiveness of so many posts on this subject doesn't invite response. I'm going to go watch some spiritual stuff.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2019 2:15 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by PaulK, posted 07-11-2019 3:13 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 271 by JonF, posted 07-11-2019 3:49 PM Faith has responded
 Message 276 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2019 5:20 PM Faith has responded
 Message 279 by Percy, posted 07-11-2019 6:31 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 274 of 1255 (857817)
07-11-2019 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by JonF
07-11-2019 3:49 PM


What if all the physical evidence was destroyed?
Have I missed it or has anyone addressed the simple problem of how there can be evidence of anything that existed before the Flood simply because all the evidence has been destroyed? I don't accept the dating claims that simply eradicate the whole problem so the problem stands and I don't see how there could be any evidence of such a change. LOTS of changes too, both biological and geological, from longevity, and originally immortality to a decreased degree of health and strength by comparison, a lush environment to a world where there are thistles and thorns and hard work required, and lots of deserts and other uninhabitable places and so on and so forth. Some of the changes probably started at the Fall but since the Flood wiped out that whole world we certainly aren't going to be able to find evidence of that early period, but I also don't see how we'd be able to find evidence of ANYTHING that existed before the Flood. But of course I believe the "fossil record" is the main evidence for all that. But that's been co-opted by the ToE so there's not much hope there.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by JonF, posted 07-11-2019 3:49 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 07-11-2019 5:00 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 280 by edge, posted 07-11-2019 6:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 290 by Percy, posted 07-12-2019 9:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 277 of 1255 (857825)
07-11-2019 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by AZPaul3
07-11-2019 5:20 PM


Re: **********
It's really depressing to be so misunderstood, but oh well, I guess I deserve it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2019 5:20 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by AZPaul3, posted 07-11-2019 6:00 PM Faith has responded
 Message 292 by Percy, posted 07-12-2019 9:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 284 of 1255 (857854)
07-12-2019 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by edge
07-11-2019 6:39 PM


Re: What if all the physical evidence was destroyed?
Good grief, man, all I meant was that there's no way to reconstruct the completely different circumstances before the Flood because as we look around this world now we don't see any evidence of it because it was all wiped out. I may be more inclined to this view because I llve on a desert of course, but I thlnk what we see overall is a wrecked planet which is evidence of the catastrophe, but it's all simply taken for granted as the way things are and always were, and the wreckage is not recognized as wreckage. So the catastrophe that caused it is not recognized. Looking at the wreckage it's impossible to reconstruct a formerly perfect lush green world.

I do agree that all those things preserved in the strata are evidence of that antediluvian world, however, but it's a pretty paltry record.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by edge, posted 07-11-2019 6:39 PM edge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Percy, posted 07-12-2019 11:07 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 285 of 1255 (857856)
07-12-2019 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by edge
07-11-2019 6:39 PM


Re: What if all the physical evidence was destroyed?
Several civilizations even fail to note the passing of the greatest calamity to have ever struck the planet.

The civilizations didn't exist at the time of the Flood, they were built up afterward. There were only eight people on the ark, who disembarked into a thoroughly wrecked planet. Nevertheless their own strength and longevity that characterized all living things in the antediluvian world, including the plant world, enabled them in a fairly short period to grow food and build houses, make pottery and so on. Their progeny spread out over the entire planet during the ensuing years and built settlements and then civilizations. Nimrod was "a mighty man in the earth" who built cities for instance. The various races were formed because families split off to settle different parts of the world in isolation from each other. Civilization grew up mostly in the Middle East and the Far East. Our European ancestors were a pretty uncivilized bunch until the Roman Empire, and then of course Christianity, tamed them. But I digress.

The flood stories we find in various cultures are apparently all that remains of the memories of the Flood from the ancestors of those who built the civilizations. The Bible also reveals that idolatrous religions grew up rapidly too, a major one around the hero Nimrod that spread out over the world according to the book The Two Babylons, and since the world was ruled by Satan and his demon horde they made up the false religions and became their "gods" to be placated too. So the true religion was forgotten, that God mercifully restored for our sake through His calling of Abraham a few hundred years after the Flood. Even Shem, whol was Abraham's great great great grandfather or something llke that, who was one of Noah's sons who had been on the ark, was still alive at that time, and he is credited with passing down the true memory of all that, which Abraham continued to pass down. And yet he came out of an idolatrous family too, who possessed idol statues or dolls (archaeology has a bunch of them) up until the time of Jacob. God took this family and gradually trained them, and after four hundred years of hard labor in Egypt, which had by then grown into a mighty civilization, gave them Moses to write down the truth for them and so on and so forth.,,, ramble ramble ramble ….

Well, this way, you can make up whatever you want and cram it into a Bible story. And some have tried that. Some even say that God just cleaned up the mess.

Yes, well of course I'm giving my own version of the Bible story here, and there is scripture to support a lot of it. It's a story that builds on what is in the Bible so even if it's made up it's made up out of facts given there. I don't know of a story about God cleaning up any mess.

(God made a mess?????)

God made an originally perfect planet. It was human sin that brought on the Flood and THAT made a mess if that's what you mean.

And now you tell us that such a maelstrom of flood waters is the only way to lay down regionally extensive 'straight and flat' strata? Miles thick?

Yes, I thlnk it could only have been formed by the Flood, which would have been fairly quiet and not a "maelstrom," over some months of its covering the planet. I see Pollux is quoting an article which apparently considers the idea that just a llayer or some few specific llayers represent the Flood, but that's such a paltry idea for what a worldwide inundation would have done. It had to build the WHOLE stack because it covered EVERYTHING.

Sorry, Faith, but this doesn't even reach the level of snake oil. I truly fret that people can prostitute their religion to this extent.

I'm sorry I'm not doing a better job of getting across my view of it, including my understanding of the "Bible story,"

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by edge, posted 07-11-2019 6:39 PM edge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Pollux, posted 07-12-2019 6:35 AM Faith has responded
 Message 297 by Percy, posted 07-12-2019 12:05 PM Faith has responded

    
Prev1
...
45
6
78
...
27NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019