The Case For A Creator

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how careful can we be? How do we really know which side is which?

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If you see writings full of falsehood - falsehoods that could be seen at the time of writing - it’s pretty clear that the writer is not in the side of truth. Check. Do your due diligence. Don’t go trying to invent bad motives for writers who say things you don’t like.

Phat writes: Its like I told ringo: quote: The default standard need not be scientific objectifiable proof in regards to such matters. How would one go about proving God to begin with?

And I answered: You don't want that to be the standard because your god doesn't meet the standard.

If your god existed, he should be easy to prove: Pray for the sick and they're healed - every time.

ringo writes: If your god existed, he should be easy to prove: Pray for the sick and they're healed - every time.

But thats your arbitrary and fantasy based standard.

Phat writes: Perhaps God would show mercy to an atheist with no desire to accept Jesus but who dutifully and perhaps even joyfully clothed,fed, encouraged, and edified the people with no strings attached.

But in fact the Bible repeatedly says just that; that it is not what you say, not what you profess to believe, not what you do believe but what you actually do that counts. It's not that God would show mercy to an atheist but rather God would rejoice in an atheist with no desire to accept Jesus but who dutifully and perhaps even joyfully clothed,fed, encouraged, and edified the people with no strings attached.

But again, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with any "Case For A Creator".

Phat writes: ringo claims that everything known and/or knowable about the Christian God and His Son Jesus Christ is contained within the book. Which would suggest that God (and Jesus) could never truly be alive within reality and within one's heart...

Do the voices in your head heart tell you their name is Jesus? Or are you just associating those spooky feelings with the stories of Jesus that you have heard?

If somebody had never heard of Jesus suddenly found Jesus "alive in their heart", would they know about the stories of Jesus at all?

Phat writes: ringo writes: If your god existed, he should be easy to prove: Pray for the sick and they're healed - every time. But thats your arbitrary and fantasy based standard.

It's the opposite of fantasy. It's the standard we use for everything else. You wouldn't keep going to a doctor who consistently failed to make you feel better. Why do you apply a lower standard to your god?

ringo writes: It's the standard we use for everything else.

But you don't define God. Yes, I can hear some of you now...."Why Does God get a free pass in regards to logic, reason, and reality"?....well duh! God if God exists is not measurable nor applicable to the rigors of typical scientific observation. One does not simply make God up by definition. On the other hand, God is not some mysterious spook outside the realm of detectability. Seek and ye shall find...but on His terms moreso than yours. Stile, for instance claims to *know* that God doesn't exist...and objectively and rationally he is absolutely correct. It may well be, however...that some of the more logical minds among us are unable to connect with God due to a reservation of unbelief due to the facts at hand which they hold as the defining marker of such a relationship. Belief is the prerequisite for encounter and communion. God does not simply appear objectively and unabashedly to anyone and everyone...as you likely think He should do.

Perhaps the reason is that He reveals Himself on His terms and as He is...not as you imagine that He must be.

Phat writes: One does not simply make God up by definition.

But Phat, what does the evidence show?

How many Gods are there?

Since the God in Genesis 1 is described as an entirely different character and personality than the God of Genesis 2&3 how can you determine which is the REAL God and which is (are) simply made up?

What about Thor and Ra and Ganesh and Apollo and Coyote and Raven and Tengri and Shiva and Odin?

What does the evidence show?

The issue is not the Gods and gods and fairies and goblins in the books. The issue is who YOU believe God to be and why. If you simply imagine a mugwump as your choice for God, you likely wont find GOD. I believe though cannot prove that through Jesus every human can and will find GOD. Not through their own vain imagination nor logic and reason regarding human literary attempts t defining God. God is in the book, but I believe that He is not limited to the book---he is not limited to what humans say about Him.

But there is no more evidence that the Judaic God or even Jesus is not simply made up just like Apollo, Ra, Thor, Odin, Tengri, Ganesha ...

And the question "How do you know what you think is God is God?" remains.

And that question is directed at everyone. Who do you say that I am?

You are Phat.

Phat writes: But you don't define God.

I'm going by your definition as much as possible but you have a very slippery definition. You're quite happy to use the Bible when it suits you but not when it puts any responsibility on you.

Phat writes: God if God exists is not measurable nor applicable to the rigors of typical scientific observation. One does not simply make God up by definition.

But you're making up that definition.

Phat writes: It may well be, however...that some of the more logical minds among us are unable to connect with God due to a reservation of unbelief due to the facts at hand which they hold as the defining marker of such a relationship.

Stop it, stop it, stop it. If you want to discuss the topic constructively and honestly, you have to assume that we all have the same desire to find God as you do.

Phat writes: Belief is the prerequisite for encounter and communion.

Bullshit.

Phat writes: God does not simply appear objectively and unabashedly to anyone and everyone...

Why not?

What I mean is that that is the question that Jesus would ask everyone today. He represents the Creator of all seen and unseen. Or do you doubt that this is true?

Phat writes: What I mean is that that is the question that Jesus would ask everyone today. He represents the Creator of all seen and unseen. Or do you doubt that this is true?

LOL

We can only know if and when Jesus shows up in a testable and verifiable form and asks the question.

Sheesh Phat.

Such a question is simply silly and without any connection to reality beyond one cults dogma.