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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4414
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 226 of 234 (857214)
07-06-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Faith
07-06-2019 2:36 PM


Re: Not A Chance
So I didn't hear him say anything about chance being a power and all that.

There is a reason for that.

I only heard a bit of the Sproul audio

Good reason for missing his main point.

When you get to the "demon that jumps into the middle" of his card game part you'll understand.

That's perilously close to saying notning happens without God it seems to me.

Of course you would. Like GDR, Sproul and Thug your mind is warped to think in that direction.

I was not objecting to the physicists' use of "chance" but Sproul's bastardized version.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 2:36 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Faith, posted 07-06-2019 6:59 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32700
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 227 of 234 (857226)
07-06-2019 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by AZPaul3
07-06-2019 4:19 PM


Re: Not A Chance
I listened to more of it and don't thlnk I'm following it very well so I shouldn't say anything at all about it. Sorry.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by AZPaul3, posted 07-06-2019 4:19 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3778
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 228 of 234 (857391)
07-08-2019 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2019 3:00 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Thugpreacha writes:

There was a show on todays radio.
Creation By Chance
A good audio podcast.

I don't think it was very good.

A coin lands heads or tails based on chance.
Do you think "nothing" makes a coin land heads or tails?

If so - then I see why you think this was a good podcast.
It not - then this podcast is terrible for the same reason: "chance" is not equal to "nothing," and anyone attempting to force that conclusion is obviously scamming you for another agenda. Such dishonorable tactics are not appreciated.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 3:00 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 10:30 AM Stile has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12680
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 229 of 234 (857393)
07-08-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Stile
07-08-2019 10:23 AM


Re: Not A Chance
What I got from the podcast is the idea that probability and chance are two different things. Probability is measured and thus known, whereas chance is open ended. The point of the coin toss was that the external agent launching the coin was known. The determination was based on gravity and the physics surrounding the coin. Also the strength exerted by the coin tosser. Chance (or probability) was an abstract and not in any way responsible for the outcome. In other words, chance itself is not a causal agent. Chance and the Sovereignty of God: Randomness

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:23 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:40 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3778
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 230 of 234 (857395)
07-08-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Thugpreacha
07-08-2019 10:30 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Thugpreacha writes:

What I got from the podcast is the idea that probability and chance are two different things.

Yes, that's what the scammer is selling you.
They are not two different things.
They are both the exact same thing.

Sometimes there are different contexts... but both words can be used for all the different contexts.

Probability is measured and thus known, whereas chance is open ended.

Nope, both are measured and thus known, and both are open ended in different contexts.

Chance (or probability) was an abstract and not in any way responsible for the outcome.

Just like probability.

In other words, chance itself is not a causal agent.

This is true.
And is also true with probability.

Chance, and probability, are no causal agents. And they are also not "nothing."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 10:30 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 11:13 AM Stile has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12680
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 231 of 234 (857403)
07-08-2019 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Stile
07-08-2019 10:40 AM


Re: Not A Chance
OK, I'll go with your argument. Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Stile, posted 07-08-2019 10:40 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by AZPaul3, posted 07-08-2019 11:36 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 233 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 1:27 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4414
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 232 of 234 (857407)
07-08-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Thugpreacha
07-08-2019 11:13 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

That is not what is being said.

For your majik man, when someone says “the universe arose by chance” he asserts they are saying “the universe arose from nothing”.

The two statements are not equivalent. And he forms his assertion in a disingenuous and logically dishonest way.

He is just another charlatan collecting silver from the weak minded believer.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 11:13 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3778
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 233 of 234 (858100)
07-16-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Thugpreacha
07-08-2019 11:13 AM


Re: Not A Chance
Thugpreacha writes:

OK, I'll go with your argument. Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

It's not my argument, it's yours.
My argument is that chance and probability are the same thing.

You already seem to understand how probability is "something" rather than nothing:

Thugpreacha writes:

Probability is measured and thus known...

I'm just saying that the same thing applies to chance.

"Chance is measured and thus known..."

Chance - and probability, are the likelihoods of possible outcomes.
That is "something" and not "nothing."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-08-2019 11:13 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by FLRW, posted 08-20-2019 6:05 PM Stile has not yet responded

    
FLRW
Junior Member
Posts: 24
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 234 of 234 (861394)
08-20-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Stile
07-16-2019 1:27 PM


Re: Not A Chance
So a probability of 0 means there’s literally no chance of that thing happening, a probability of 0.5 means there’s a 50% chance, and a probability of 1 means that it’s certain to happen. As you can see, the idea of probability and chance is the same.
This message is a reply to:
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