Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,448 Year: 3,705/9,624 Month: 576/974 Week: 189/276 Day: 29/34 Hour: 10/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1291 of 3207 (858142)
07-17-2019 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1285 by Dredge
07-17-2019 2:14 AM


Re: chances
Dredge writes:
You seem to have forgotten the alleged first life-form, which, according to atheist folklore, formed naturally from inanimate matter.
Also according to Judeo-Christian folklore:
quote:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1285 by Dredge, posted 07-17-2019 2:14 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1293 by Phat, posted 07-17-2019 5:36 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1377 by Dredge, posted 07-20-2019 7:19 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1292 of 3207 (858145)
07-17-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1286 by Stile
07-17-2019 9:27 AM


Historical Philosophical Proofs Of God Revisited
Stile,addressing GDR writes:
I can prove that people exist, and that people have feelings, and that people are capable of extraordinary things that some people would call miracles.
And you can "just as easily" prove there is a god?
Feel free.
I'm waiting.
Lets examine some historical arguments. We need to address these first before attempting to dream up any new ones.
St.Thomas Aquinas had his famous Summa theologiae.
He did a pretty good job of stimulating philosophical thought especially in that day and time. Lets address each of the 5 ways using our modern understanding.
5 Ways writes:
Prima Via: The Argument of the Unmoved Mover:
Summary

In the world, we can see that at least some things are changing. Whatever is changing is being changed by something else. If that by which it is changing is itself changed, then it too is being changed by something else. But this chain cannot be infinitely long, so there must be something that causes change without itself changing. This everyone understands to be God.[7][13]
Explanation
Aquinas uses the term "motion" in his argument, but by this he understands any kind of "change", more specifically a transit from potentiality to actuality.[14] (For example, a puddle growing to be larger would be counted inside the boundaries of Aquinas' usage.) Since a potential does not yet exist, it cannot cause itself to exist and can therefore only be brought into existence by something already existing.[1]
*****************************************************
Secunda Via: The Argument of the First Cause
Summary

In the world, we can see that things are caused. But it is not possible for something to be the cause of itself because this would entail that it exists prior to itself, which is a contradiction. If that by which it is caused is itself caused, then it too must have a cause. But this cannot be an infinitely long chain, so, there must be a cause which is not itself caused by anything further. This everyone understands to be God.[13]
Explanation
As in the First Way, the causes Aquinas has in mind are not sequential events, but rather simultaneously existing dependency relationships: Aristotle's efficient cause. For example, plant growth depends on sunlight, which depends on gravity, which depends on mass.[8] Aquinas is not arguing for a cause that is first in a sequence, but rather first in a hierarchy: a principal cause, rather than a derivative cause.[15]
******************************************************
Tertia Via: The Argument from Contingency
Summary

In the world we see things that are possible to be and possible not to be. In other words, perishable things. But if everything were contingent and thus capable of going out of existence, then, nothing would exist now. But things clearly do exist now. Therefore, there must be something that is imperishable: a necessary being. This everyone understands to be God.[7][13]
Explanation
The argument begins with the observation that things around us come into and go out of existence: animals die, buildings are destroyed, etc. But if everything were like this, then, at some time nothing would exist. Some interpreters read Aquinas to mean that assuming an infinite past, all possibilities would be realized and everything would go out of existence. Since this is clearly not the case, then there must be at least one thing that does not have the possibility of going out of existence.[13] However, this explanation seems to involve the fallacy of composition (quantifier shift). Moreover, it does not seem to be in keeping with Aquinas' principle that, among natural things, the destruction of one thing is always the generation of another.[16] Alternatively, one could read Aquinas to be arguing as follows: if there is eternal change, so that things are eternally being generated and corrupted, and since an eternal effect requires an eternal cause (just as a necessary conclusion requires necessary premises), then there must exist an eternal agent which can account for the eternity of generation and corruption. To hold the alternative, namely that an infinite series of contingent causes would be able to explain eternal generation and corruption would posit a circular argument: Why is there eternal generation and corruption? Because there is an eternal series of causes which are being generated and corrupted. And why is there an infinite series of causes which are being generated and corrupted? Because there is eternal generation and corruption. Since such an explanation is not acceptable, there must be (at least one) eternal and necessary being.
************************************************************
Quarta Via: The Argument from Degree
Summary

We see things in the world that vary in degrees of goodness, truth, nobility, etc. For example, well-drawn circles are better than poorly drawn ones, healthy animals are better than sick animals. Moreover, some substances are better than others, since living things are better than non-living things, and animals are better than plants, in testimony of which no one would choose to lose their senses for the sake of having the longevity of a tree. But judging something as being "more" or "less" implies some standard against which it is being judged. For example in a room full of people of varying heights, at least one must be tallest. Therefore, there is something which is best and most true, and most a being, etc. Aquinas then adds the premise: what is most in a genus is the cause of all else in that genus. From this he deduces that there exists some most-good being which causes goodness in all else, and this everyone understands to be God.[13]
Explanation
The argument is rooted in Aristotle and Plato but its developed form is found in Anselm's Monologion.[17][18] Although the argument has Platonic influences, Aquinas was not a Platonist and did not believe in the Theory of Forms. Rather, he is arguing that things that only have partial or flawed existence indicate that they are not their own sources of existence, and so must rely on something else as the source of their existence.[19] The argument makes use of the theory of transcendentals: properties of existence. For example, "true" presents an aspect of existence, as any existent thing will be "true" insofar as it is true that it exists. Or "one," insofar as any existent thing will be (at least) "one thing."[20] The premise which seems to cause the most difficulty among interpreters of the fourth way is that the greatest in a genus is the cause of all else in the genus. This premise does not seem to be universally true, and indeed, Aquinas himself thinks that this premise is not always true, but only under certain circumstances[21]: namely, when 1) the lesser things in the genus need a cause, and 2) there is nothing outside the genus which can be the cause. When these two conditions are met, the premise that the greatest in the genus is the cause of all else in that genus holds, since nothing gives what it does not have. Since Aquinas is dealing specifically with transcendentals like being and goodness, and since there is nothing outside the transcendentals, it follows that there is nothing outside the genus which could be a cause (condition 2). Moreover, if something has less than the maximum being or goodness or truth, then it must not have being or goodness or truth in itself. For example, how could what has circularity itself be less than fully circular? Therefore, whatever has less than the maximum being or goodness or truth must need a cause of their being and goodness and truth (condition 1).
*************************************************************
Quinta Via: Argument from Final Cause or Ends
Summary

We see various non-intelligent objects in the world behaving in regular ways. This cannot be due to chance since then they would not behave with predictable results. So their behavior must be set. But it cannot be set by themselves since they are non-intelligent and have no notion of how to set behavior. Therefore, their behavior must be set by something else, and by implication something that must be intelligent. This everyone understands to be God.[13]
Explanation
This is also known as the Teleological Argument. However, it is not a "Cosmic Watchmaker" argument from design (see below). Instead, as the 1920 Dominican translation puts it, The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world[2].
The Fifth Way uses Aristotle's final cause. Aristotle argued that a complete explanation of an object will involve knowledge of how it came to be (efficient cause), what material it consists of (material cause), how that material is structured (formal cause), and the specific behaviors associated with the type of thing it is (final cause).[22] The concept of final causes involves the concept of dispositions or "ends": a specific goal or aim towards which something strives. For example, acorns regularly develop into oak trees but never into sea lions. The oak tree is the "end" towards which the acorn "points," its disposition, even if it fails to achieve maturity. The aims and goals of intelligent beings is easily explained by the fact that they consciously set those goals for themselves. The implication is that if something has a goal or end towards which it strives, it is either because it is intelligent or because something intelligent is guiding it.[23]
It must be emphasized that this argument is distinct from the design argument associated with William Paley and the Intelligent Design movement. The latter implicitly argue that objects in the world do not have inherent dispositions or ends, but, like Paley's watch, will not naturally have a purpose unless forced to do some outside agency.[23] The latter also focus on complexity and interworking parts as the effect needing explanation, whereas the Fifth Way takes as its starting point any regularity.[23] (E.g., that an eye has a complicated function therefore a design therefore a designer) but an argument from final cause (e.g., that the pattern that things exist with a purpose itself allows us to recursively arrive at God as the ultimate source of purpose without being constrained by any external purpose).
These arguments seem to make sense to me, but I am no scientist. I am, however, an ardent philosopher and believer. What about these basic arguments would you have qualms about, apart from objective measurable evidence? I would argue that not every philosophical concept can be objectively measured but this in and of itself should not disqualify such a line of thought from reasonable consideration as to relevance.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1286 by Stile, posted 07-17-2019 9:27 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 8:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1293 of 3207 (858146)
07-17-2019 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by ringo
07-17-2019 5:10 PM


Re: chances
The breath of life is more (to me) than simply a biological beginning. It is a purposeful beginning originating from the mind of the Creator. We have a purpose beyond simply making babies.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1294 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:56 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1294 of 3207 (858152)
07-17-2019 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1293 by Phat
07-17-2019 5:36 PM


Re: chances
Phat writes:
The breath of life is more (to me) than simply a biological beginning. It is a purposeful beginning originating from the mind of the Creator.
That's irrelevant. The point here is that we came from non-living matter.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by Phat, posted 07-17-2019 5:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1295 by Phat, posted 07-17-2019 6:48 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1295 of 3207 (858160)
07-17-2019 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1294 by ringo
07-17-2019 5:56 PM


Re: chances
Explain again the "scientific" explanation of how life came from non-life. Was it Dr.Frankenstein's lightning bolt?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1294 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1296 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 6:55 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1296 of 3207 (858161)
07-17-2019 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1295 by Phat
07-17-2019 6:48 PM


Re: chances
Phat writes:
Explain again the "scientific" explanation of how life came from non-life. Was it Dr.Frankenstein's lightning bolt?
That's a bit over-dramatic. There's no real difference between non-living chemicals and living chemicals, so the transition could be fairly gentle. But of course, if lightning was involved, that's perfectly natural too.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1295 by Phat, posted 07-17-2019 6:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1297 by Phat, posted 07-17-2019 7:04 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1297 of 3207 (858162)
07-17-2019 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1296 by ringo
07-17-2019 6:55 PM


Re: chances
You claim that everything that can be known about God and Jesus is confined to the book. I will claim that everything that can be known or guessed concerning the galaxy and the universe beyond...including the evidence of god or lack of...is confined to human wisdom coming solely from this dust speck called Earth. I would say that science also has quite a task describing this whole universe and leaving the idea of God as an uncaused first cause out of their equation.
Why should the source be human derived? We were at one time non living chemicals!!
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1296 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 6:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1298 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 7:26 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1298 of 3207 (858164)
07-17-2019 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1297 by Phat
07-17-2019 7:04 PM


Re: chances
Phat writes:
You claim that everything that can be known about God and Jesus is confined to the book. I will claim that everything that can be known or guessed concerning the galaxy and the universe beyond...including the evidence of god or lack of...is confined to human wisdom coming solely from this dust speck called Earth.
What's your point?
Phat writes:
Why should the source be human derived?
Because it's the only source we have. If you have another source, roll it out - but make an argument; don't just assert.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by Phat, posted 07-17-2019 7:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1301 by Phat, posted 07-18-2019 8:15 AM ringo has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 617 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1299 of 3207 (858173)
07-17-2019 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1285 by Dredge
07-17-2019 2:14 AM


Re: chances
You're not quite correct. I said life builds new versions of itself. I didn't say that the earliest forms of life weren't the results of self-replicating chemical compounds developing from non-living chemical compounds.
As for intelligence having to exist before intelligence can exist . . . isn't that a contradiction in your position?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1285 by Dredge, posted 07-17-2019 2:14 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1378 by Dredge, posted 07-20-2019 7:21 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1300 of 3207 (858177)
07-18-2019 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1288 by GDR
07-17-2019 10:48 AM


Re: chances
GDR writes:
I know that is isn't proof to the point that I can say that I know there is a god, but I'm using the same logic that you are using to come to your conclusion.
You think people doing people things - things we've seen people do for tens of thousands of years - is the same thing as God doing people things - something we've never seen happen in thousands of years?
This may be where our difference lies.
I don't understand how you can say that's the same logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1288 by GDR, posted 07-17-2019 10:48 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by Phat, posted 07-18-2019 8:40 AM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18307
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1301 of 3207 (858178)
07-18-2019 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1298 by ringo
07-17-2019 7:26 PM


Hubris At Refusing To Consider God
Phat writes:
You claim that everything that can be known about God and Jesus is confined to the book. I will claim that everything that can be known or guessed concerning the galaxy and the universe beyond...including the evidence of god or lack of...is confined to human wisdom coming solely from this dust speck called Earth.
ringo writes:
What's your point?
Dont you see it? The human hubris at asserting a low probability of God? Based on our microcosmic position?
Lets go back and reassess the reasoning.
There is "likely No God or at any rate no Christian God because:
  • Behavior of Christians infers no special advantage
  • Evidence is lacking, according to some secular arguments. Apologists disagree, and have many arguments countering this, however.
    This specific evidence against God first seeks to discredit the Bible itself. The jury is still out, as there are also many arguments supporting the Bible.
  • The fact that this "God" has never talked to everyone. I would argue that humans by nature are defiant towards the idea of an authority that is "alien". They want to cling to their precious free will at all costs, even if it is shown to them that they need higher wisdom to deal with their own flawed and selfish, greedy reality.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1298 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 7:26 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1307 by Theodoric, posted 07-18-2019 10:07 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1309 by ringo, posted 07-18-2019 11:58 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 1302 of 3207 (858180)
    07-18-2019 8:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 1289 by ringo
    07-17-2019 5:05 PM


    No evidence = irrational
    ringo writes:
    But sharkfin soup at McDonalds is not an irrational concept.
    True.
    There's evidence for sharks.
    Similarly, God is not an inherently irrational concept.
    Untrue.
    God is an inherently irrational concept.
    Unless you can provide any amount of evidence that suggests God actually exists?
    So they don't belong in the same discussion with banana keys or crab chairs. You definitely have two sets of goalposts there.
    Sharkfin soup on McDonald's menu is meant to show how we identify something that doesn't exist - look for where it's supposed to be and see that it's not there.
    If you want an example closer to "God" you should pick the one I've repeatedly said is closer to God - Santa Claus.
    Sharkfin soup is not irrational - there is evidence it exists.
    God is irrational - there is no evidence He exists.
    Santa Claus, banana keys and crab chairs are irrational - there is no evidence they exist.
    God belongs in the same discussion as Santa Claus, banana keys and crab chairs as they all have no evidence to suggest they exist.
    This isn't moving goal posts.
    This is being consistent.
    You're just taking aspects of my discussion out of context and applying it incorrectly and then accusing me of moving goal posts.
    Try this:
    If someone had no knowledge of McDonald's menu - it would be rational for them to posit "Hey - I wonder if Sharkfin soup exists on McDonald's menu?"
    Then they could look.
    And it's not there.
    After looking, and seeing it's not there - it's now irrational for them to continue to posit "Hey - I wonder if Sharkfin soup exists on McDonald's menu?"
    Because they now have more information than before.
    Do you agree?
    If, for some reason, McDonald's menu didn't exist (the chain was never created, say) - I am also claiming that it's irrational to posit "Hey - I wonder if Sharkfin soup exists on McDonald's menu?"... as the question no longer make sense. In this scenario, we have no evidence that McDonald's menu exists - therefore it is irrational to posit if anything exists on it.
    Same thing with God.
    Thousands of years ago, if someone had no knowledge of God - it would be rational for them to posit "Hey - that sun is powerful, I wonder if a being exists in the sun that generates such power?"
    Then we looked.
    And over the millennia God has been claimed to be in all sorts of rational places.
    And we looked.
    And over the last few hundred years God has been claimed to be in all sorts of irrational places - but still causing rational effects.
    And we looked.
    After looking, we see that God isn't there. Not in any of the rational places. Not a cause for any of the rational effects.
    After looking, for thousands of years, we have no evidence that God exists.
    I am saying that it is now irrational to continue to posit:
    "Hey - I wonder if God exists in the sun?"
    "Hey - I wonder if God exists in the weather?"
    "Hey - I wonder if God exists in heaven?"
    "Hey - I wonder if God exists in our hearts?"
    I am also saying that if one takes the next step and posits: "Hey - I wonder if God exists in someplace we cannot detect, doing things we also cannot detect?"
    -this is equivalent to asking if God exists in an irrational place, doing irrational things - there's no evidence to suggest that the question is rational in any way. Just like banana keys and crab chairs. If one goes in this direction, because there's no evidence for any of it, the entire question is again irrational.
    It's all consistent.
    It all uses the same goalposts.
    Please don't take a small piece from one context and attempt to apply it to another - such things never work in any consistent framework.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1289 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:05 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1303 by Phat, posted 07-18-2019 8:36 AM Stile has replied
     Message 1310 by ringo, posted 07-18-2019 12:03 PM Stile has replied
     Message 1379 by Dredge, posted 07-20-2019 7:25 PM Stile has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18307
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1303 of 3207 (858181)
    07-18-2019 8:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 1302 by Stile
    07-18-2019 8:28 AM


    Re: No evidence = irrational
    Stile writes:
    Thousands of years ago, if someone had no knowledge of God - it would be rational for them to posit "Hey - that sun is powerful, I wonder if a being exists in the sun that generates such power?"
    Then we looked.
    And over the millennia God has been claimed to be in all sorts of rational places.
    And we looked.
    And over the last few hundred years God has been claimed to be in all sorts of irrational places - but still causing rational effects.
    And we looked.
    After looking, we see that God isn't there. Not in any of the rational places. Not a cause for any of the rational effects.
    After looking, for thousands of years, we have no evidence that God exists.
    I am saying that it is now irrational to continue to posit:
    "Hey - I wonder if God exists in the sun?"
    "Hey - I wonder if God exists in the weather?"
    "Hey - I wonder if God exists in heaven?"
    "Hey - I wonder if God exists in our hearts?"
    I believe that God exists, first of all...wherever He wants to exist. When God gave us free will, He set it up to be a belief thing rather than an evidence thing for a specific reason---to make true free will possible. The reason you don't find God in the sun is because God created the sun. He is much bigger than the sun. Same with the weather. Heaven has no specific geographic location so there is no way to look there. And God only exists in a heart who wants Him there. I maintain that you don't find Him because you don't want Him. You simply made an argument absolving you of any emotional responsibility.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1302 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 8:28 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1306 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 9:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18307
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1304 of 3207 (858182)
    07-18-2019 8:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 1300 by Stile
    07-18-2019 8:11 AM


    Re: chances
    Stile,responding to GDR writes:
    You think people doing people things - things we've seen people do for tens of thousands of years - is the same thing as God doing people things - something we've never seen happen in thousands of years?
    Jesus was God incarnate. Jesus did people things. Though many arguments have attempted to dismiss Him as a myth or discredit the sources who claim His existence, the argument is far from conclusive.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1300 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 8:11 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1308 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 10:49 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 1305 of 3207 (858184)
    07-18-2019 8:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 1292 by Phat
    07-17-2019 5:33 PM


    Re: Historical Philosophical Proofs Of God Revisited
    quote:
    Prima Via: The Argument of the Unmoved Mover:
    Summary
    In the world, we can see that at least some things are changing. Whatever is changing is being changed by something else. If that by which it is changing is itself changed, then it too is being changed by something else. But this chain cannot be infinitely long, so there must be something that causes change without itself changing. This everyone understands to be God.[7][13]
    Explanation
    Aquinas uses the term "motion" in his argument, but by this he understands any kind of "change", more specifically a transit from potentiality to actuality.[14] (For example, a puddle growing to be larger would be counted inside the boundaries of Aquinas' usage.) Since a potential does not yet exist, it cannot cause itself to exist and can therefore only be brought into existence by something already existing.[1]
    But this chain cannot be infinitely long, so there must be something that causes change without itself changing.
    This may or may not be true.
    I don't know enough about physics to say either way.
    But I will assume it is true, for the sake of the argument.
    This everyone understands to be God.
    This is definitely not true.
    The words "everyone" and "understands" do not apply.
    It would be more accurate to say "Some people claim this to be because of God."
    But still - there's no evidence of God - so why introduce the concept of God which comes along with a whole lot of additional baggage other than "moves that which has no cause."
    If we want to posit something that "moves that which has no cause" and does absolutely nothing else:
    -isn't omnipotent
    -is not necessarily even alive (may be a physical aspect of the universe we don't yet understand)
    -doesn't care about people in any way, possible doesn't (or can't) even know people exist
    ...that could be considered rational.
    To call this "God" is itself irrational because "God" has a lot of other baggage in it's meaning.
    quote:
    Secunda Via: The Argument of the First Cause
    Summary
    In the world, we can see that things are caused. But it is not possible for something to be the cause of itself because this would entail that it exists prior to itself, which is a contradiction. If that by which it is caused is itself caused, then it too must have a cause. But this cannot be an infinitely long chain, so, there must be a cause which is not itself caused by anything further. This everyone understands to be God.[13]
    Explanation
    As in the First Way, the causes Aquinas has in mind are not sequential events, but rather simultaneously existing dependency relationships: Aristotle's efficient cause. For example, plant growth depends on sunlight, which depends on gravity, which depends on mass.[8] Aquinas is not arguing for a cause that is first in a sequence, but rather first in a hierarchy: a principal cause, rather than a derivative cause.[15]
    Same as above.
    Maybe things do require a cause.
    There is no evidence that such a "fundamental cause-giver" is God.
    There is no evidence that God exists.
    Applying the term God is irrational because it comes along with so much other definitional baggage. It would be better to use a new term - like "The Dark Cause." That would be rational.
    Perhaps, one day, we will find evidence that shows The Dark Cause is from God - then "God" will be a rational possible explanation. Until then, though - God remains irrational.
    quote:
    Tertia Via: The Argument from Contingency
    Summary
    In the world we see things that are possible to be and possible not to be. In other words, perishable things. But if everything were contingent and thus capable of going out of existence, then, nothing would exist now. But things clearly do exist now. Therefore, there must be something that is imperishable: a necessary being. This everyone understands to be God.[7][13]
    Explanation
    The argument begins with the observation that things around us come into and go out of existence: animals die, buildings are destroyed, etc. But if everything were like this, then, at some time nothing would exist. Some interpreters read Aquinas to mean that assuming an infinite past, all possibilities would be realized and everything would go out of existence. Since this is clearly not the case, then there must be at least one thing that does not have the possibility of going out of existence.[13] However, this explanation seems to involve the fallacy of composition (quantifier shift). Moreover, it does not seem to be in keeping with Aquinas' principle that, among natural things, the destruction of one thing is always the generation of another.[16] Alternatively, one could read Aquinas to be arguing as follows: if there is eternal change, so that things are eternally being generated and corrupted, and since an eternal effect requires an eternal cause (just as a necessary conclusion requires necessary premises), then there must exist an eternal agent which can account for the eternity of generation and corruption. To hold the alternative, namely that an infinite series of contingent causes would be able to explain eternal generation and corruption would posit a circular argument: Why is there eternal generation and corruption? Because there is an eternal series of causes which are being generated and corrupted. And why is there an infinite series of causes which are being generated and corrupted? Because there is eternal generation and corruption. Since such an explanation is not acceptable, there must be (at least one) eternal and necessary being.
    But if everything were contingent and thus capable of going out of existence, then, nothing would exist now.
    The premise for this one falls apart.
    This isn't true at all.
    Why can't a continuous chain of contingent-items coming-in and going-out of existence go on forever?
    quote:
    Quarta Via: The Argument from Degree
    Summary
    We see things in the world that vary in degrees of goodness, truth, nobility, etc. For example, well-drawn circles are better than poorly drawn ones, healthy animals are better than sick animals. Moreover, some substances are better than others, since living things are better than non-living things, and animals are better than plants, in testimony of which no one would choose to lose their senses for the sake of having the longevity of a tree. But judging something as being "more" or "less" implies some standard against which it is being judged. For example in a room full of people of varying heights, at least one must be tallest. Therefore, there is something which is best and most true, and most a being, etc. Aquinas then adds the premise: what is most in a genus is the cause of all else in that genus. From this he deduces that there exists some most-good being which causes goodness in all else, and this everyone understands to be God.[13]
    Explanation
    The argument is rooted in Aristotle and Plato but its developed form is found in Anselm's Monologion.[17][18] Although the argument has Platonic influences, Aquinas was not a Platonist and did not believe in the Theory of Forms. Rather, he is arguing that things that only have partial or flawed existence indicate that they are not their own sources of existence, and so must rely on something else as the source of their existence.[19] The argument makes use of the theory of transcendentals: properties of existence. For example, "true" presents an aspect of existence, as any existent thing will be "true" insofar as it is true that it exists. Or "one," insofar as any existent thing will be (at least) "one thing."[20] The premise which seems to cause the most difficulty among interpreters of the fourth way is that the greatest in a genus is the cause of all else in the genus. This premise does not seem to be universally true, and indeed, Aquinas himself thinks that this premise is not always true, but only under certain circumstances[21]: namely, when 1) the lesser things in the genus need a cause, and 2) there is nothing outside the genus which can be the cause. When these two conditions are met, the premise that the greatest in the genus is the cause of all else in that genus holds, since nothing gives what it does not have. Since Aquinas is dealing specifically with transcendentals like being and goodness, and since there is nothing outside the transcendentals, it follows that there is nothing outside the genus which could be a cause (condition 2). Moreover, if something has less than the maximum being or goodness or truth, then it must not have being or goodness or truth in itself. For example, how could what has circularity itself be less than fully circular? Therefore, whatever has less than the maximum being or goodness or truth must need a cause of their being and goodness and truth (condition 1).
    We see things in the world that vary in degrees of goodness, truth, nobility, etc. For example, well-drawn circles are better than poorly drawn ones, healthy animals are better than sick animals.
    This is subjective.
    There are times where a poorly drawn circle is much better than a well-drawn circle - when attempting to be creative or different, say.
    in testimony of which no one would choose to lose their senses for the sake of having the longevity of a tree.
    ...this is silly.
    I wouldn't choose to lose my senses for the sake of having the longevity of a God either.
    Does this mean that people are "better" than Gods?
    Of course not.
    Equally so - this doesn't mean that people are "better" than trees. Or that animals are "better" than plants.
    The concept is juvenile at best.
    For example in a room full of people of varying heights, at least one must be tallest. Therefore, there is something which is best and most true...
    I'm tall.
    Tall isn't always best.
    I hate flying because I'm tall. Short people are comfortable on planes - I don't fit.
    The premise for this falls apart. Therefore the argument is bogus.
    Aquinas then adds the premise: what is most in a genus is the cause of all else in that genus.
    This is easily shown to be false.
    The tallest person in a room is not the cause of all the other heights of all the rest of the people in the room.
    You do understand this - yes?
    With issues in all the premises for this argument, there's no reason to entertain the conclusion.
    quote:
    Quinta Via: Argument from Final Cause or Ends
    Summary
    We see various non-intelligent objects in the world behaving in regular ways. This cannot be due to chance since then they would not behave with predictable results. So their behavior must be set. But it cannot be set by themselves since they are non-intelligent and have no notion of how to set behavior. Therefore, their behavior must be set by something else, and by implication something that must be intelligent. This everyone understands to be God.[13]
    Explanation
    This is also known as the Teleological Argument. However, it is not a "Cosmic Watchmaker" argument from design (see below). Instead, as the 1920 Dominican translation puts it, The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world[2].
    The Fifth Way uses Aristotle's final cause. Aristotle argued that a complete explanation of an object will involve knowledge of how it came to be (efficient cause), what material it consists of (material cause), how that material is structured (formal cause), and the specific behaviors associated with the type of thing it is (final cause).[22] The concept of final causes involves the concept of dispositions or "ends": a specific goal or aim towards which something strives. For example, acorns regularly develop into oak trees but never into sea lions. The oak tree is the "end" towards which the acorn "points," its disposition, even if it fails to achieve maturity. The aims and goals of intelligent beings is easily explained by the fact that they consciously set those goals for themselves. The implication is that if something has a goal or end towards which it strives, it is either because it is intelligent or because something intelligent is guiding it.[23]
    It must be emphasized that this argument is distinct from the design argument associated with William Paley and the Intelligent Design movement. The latter implicitly argue that objects in the world do not have inherent dispositions or ends, but, like Paley's watch, will not naturally have a purpose unless forced to do some outside agency.[23] The latter also focus on complexity and interworking parts as the effect needing explanation, whereas the Fifth Way takes as its starting point any regularity.[23] (E.g., that an eye has a complicated function therefore a design therefore a designer) but an argument from final cause (e.g., that the pattern that things exist with a purpose itself allows us to recursively arrive at God as the ultimate source of purpose without being constrained by any external purpose).
    We see various non-intelligent objects in the world behaving in regular ways. This cannot be due to chance since then they would not behave with predictable results.
    Accepted.
    However... we also see various non-intelligent objects in the world behaving in irregular ways. Ways which are due to chance. What about them?
    So their behavior must be set.
    Accepted.
    But it cannot be set by themselves since they are non-intelligent and have no notion of how to set behavior.
    Although I agree it cannot be set by themselves.
    It is not because they are non-intelligent.
    Non-intelligent things set behaviour all the time. Have you never seen a pool table before?
    The bumpers around the pool table set the behaviour of the pool balls.
    As the pool balls move in the bumpers, the bumpers set their direction in a predictable fashion.
    The bumpers are not intelligent.
    Therefore - non-intelligence is certainly capable of setting predictable behaviour.
    Therefore, their behavior must be set by something else...
    Accepted.
    ...and by implication something that must be intelligent.
    False, as shown by pool table bumpers setting the predictable behaviour of pool balls.
    This everyone understands to be God.
    This conclusion is unacceptable because the premise falls apart.
    And, again, only "some" claim it to be God anyway.
    The dishonesty and stretching of credibility within these "pretty good" historical arguments are telling.
    Whoever wrote them already had their conclusion in mind.
    There is still no evidence here for God.
    Therefore - I still know that God does not exist.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1292 by Phat, posted 07-17-2019 5:33 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024