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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 635 of 868 (856870)
07-03-2019 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by Tangle
07-03-2019 4:58 PM


Re: How To Determine Chosen Human Instruments
All I am asserting is that a World War is likely. I never mentioned the end of the world. And I am pointing out that even someone with your rational level of thinking could spot the high possibility.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2019 4:58 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Pressie, posted 07-04-2019 8:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 637 by jar, posted 07-04-2019 9:20 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 638 of 868 (856968)
07-04-2019 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by Tangle
07-03-2019 4:58 PM


Re: How To Determine Chosen Human Instruments
Tangle writes:
And what's atheism got to do with anything.
I suppose I should have been more specific. Let me rephrase:
Even rationally minded individuals unswayed by religious belief must admit that there is a good probability that the social media driven information age, coupled with the historical tendency of autocratic dictators to use technology to attempt to enslave a persecuted group makes for the likelihood of a conflict globally approaching the size and scope of a World War.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2019 4:58 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 639 of 868 (856971)
07-04-2019 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 637 by jar
07-04-2019 9:20 AM


Re: How To Determine Chosen Human Instruments
jar writes:
Phat, what other nations have nuclear stockpiles?
at least 10 major stockpiles...maybe more.
jar writes:
Phat, what is the most likely delivery method for a nuclear device?
Apart from Missiles and bombers, I'm not sure, though the method could be as simple as a rogue drone or even a catapult. depends if the deliverer seeks to live or not.
Phat, are there other threats than nuclear devices?
Most certainly. Here is a short list that I can think of: Electromagnetic Pulse attacks, germ warfare, biological warfare, sabotage of key electrical grid components, and the list goes on. I could envision a terrorist with a portable drone dropping anthrax powder on the super bowl through air dispersion. Evil knows no limits except the restraint of the Lord. I pray He never removes His protection from us, but what makes us any more worthy of salvation than any other nation globally?
Phat, what are the delivery methods for those other threats?
As I mentioned before, drones could carry poisons into reservoirs and over open air crowd events. Apart from that threat, the usual threats are chiefly human carried. (hijacked planes, trucks, and ships )Thus as we get deeper into facial recognition scanning, marks on hands or foreheads being mandatory, and immigration policies, the cost of security and the erosion of privacy will continue. We would do well to make more friends and fewer enemies. It is a bit ironic that the conservative fundamentalist Christians worry about a One World Government when global cooperation may be the solution.
Phat, which is more likely to be a deterrent to Iranian aggression; threatening total destruction or becoming the single largest consumer for Iranian oil?
Making America Great Again involves success in developing a friendly business partner rather than a militant overlord.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by jar, posted 07-04-2019 9:20 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 644 of 868 (858148)
07-17-2019 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by ringo
07-17-2019 5:21 PM


I would thus argue that the main qualifier as to who is and is not a Christian is more than simply claim to belonging to some club. It is by daily works, a philosophical overview incorporating communion between God and Man, and a reasonable understanding of scripture apart from simple deduction that is unshared by the believers-at-large in general. One obvious example: "The snake told the truth". Foolishness!! The snake was by implication a representation of satan and we all know that satan is the father of lies. There is no possible truth emanating from any such crawling creature. Of course you can make an argument otherwise, but what sense does your argument make...apart from suggesting that what is written explains the conclusion? It would make no sense for the villain to be truthful while the hero lies.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:53 PM Phat has replied
 Message 648 by jar, posted 07-17-2019 6:02 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 652 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 1:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 645 of 868 (858149)
07-17-2019 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by jar
07-17-2019 8:01 AM


No True Christian? Examine Yourselves Carefully!
I wont go so far as to accuse you of not being a Christian...I would question Dredge every bit as much, in fact...but one obvious question is how anyone could be a Christian who does not believe that Jesus is alive today. You allow your common sense to get in the way and forever ask how such a unscientific fact could exist. Perhaps you feel...according to your club bylaws, no doubt...that Jesus being alive today is unimportant to your particular brand of Christian. Can you elaborate?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by jar, posted 07-17-2019 8:01 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by jar, posted 07-17-2019 6:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 646 of 868 (858150)
07-17-2019 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by Tangle
07-03-2019 4:58 PM


Re: How To Determine Chosen Human Instruments
All your juries are always out Phat; have you not noticed?
There is no need to make rash conclusions when so much circumstantial evidence clouds the issue.
First, we have a large absence of evidence. I would argue that unbelief should never be the default position----especially among those of us who have experienced a strong subjective awareness of the presence of God. Some things cannot be objectively proven. My default is to remain a believer and ascribe these situations as mysteries.
But then again, many of you see no need for God to begin with...so your world view is necessarily different. Your juries are all in.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2019 4:58 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 650 of 868 (858155)
07-17-2019 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by ringo
07-17-2019 5:53 PM


Taking On ringo
ringo writes:
Phat writes:
I would thus argue... a philosophical overview incorporating communion between God and Man...
Okay, why don't you argue that instead of just asserting it?
Phat writes:
One obvious example: "The snake told the truth". Foolishness!!
God said it. You're calling God foolish.
How can you honestly make such an argument when you don't even believe that God exists? Oh but of course you mean the God in the book! How silly of me! Jesus is the human character of God in the book, and Jesus said in"John 8:44 (ESV)
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Of course you will argue that it was John and not Jesus who actually said this. You don't see the God Who wrote the book as the preexisting Word.
ringo writes:
Phat writes:
The snake was by implication a representation of satan...
There is no reason to think that that's true.
There are plenty of reasons. Quit dismissing the apologists as a group of conmen. You yourself are doing more to distort the meaning of the book than they have collectively ever done. You attempt to reduce Christianity to a philosophical subset of human truth. This places it as fallible and untrue as your socialist "each according to their ability" claptrap (which wont work in today's world without a global war, by the way) Can even dare suggest! You need God before you will ever achieve utopia on this 3rd rock!
Phat writes:
... and we all know that satan is the father of lies.
Nope. We don't know that. We know that John thought that.
What reasons would you have to question Johns motives? He seems more in touch with God than either you or I. Forget your human morality argument...it falls flat at this point!
Phat writes:
There is no possible truth emanating from any such crawling creature.
Tell it to God. He admitted that the snake told the truth.
Oh? So you admit that God wrote the book?
Phat writes:
Of course you can make an argument otherwise...
I have made that argument many times and you have never, ever made any attempt to refute it. Why not?
I'm doing it as we speak. Better quit sipping and start flippin them pages, satch.
Phat writes:
... but what sense does your argument make...apart from suggesting that what is written explains the conclusion?
Again... the only source you have for your Jesus is the Book. You can't just throw the book out the window for some silly tales about "Satan" made up by a bunch of apologists.
I can and do argue that God preexisted the book. It is a belief, but it will stand the test of time far longer than any modern secular humanist utopian kum-ba-yah nonsense spouted by extreme Leftist idealists!
Please stop spouting the same nonsense over and over again and think before you call God a liar. Come up with an actual argument before you call God a liar.
My God never lies. Not even in Genesis. It is your God...or rather your interpretation of the book---that's on trial here.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 6:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 663 of 868 (858518)
07-21-2019 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 662 by jar
07-20-2019 9:10 PM


Talking The Talk and Walking The Walk
quote:
But the fact remains that I am a registered member of a recognized Christian denomination and thus a Christian.
So any moron could wander in off the street and if they convinced the committee that they could complete the course they would become a recognized member. Thus, to become a member of any club, one simply needs to complete the by laws. I see your rationale. In my club, one needs to confess, surrender, and they get the GOOHF Card and the decoder ring.
In my club, members recognize each other through both talking the talk ( Faith )and walking the walk.(works)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by jar, posted 07-20-2019 9:10 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 664 of 868 (858519)
07-21-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by Dredge
07-20-2019 7:44 PM


jars Christianity
jar is a Christian...though he was taught to think and was Episcopalian...(they never park their brains at the door) so he questions a lot of stuff. His belief about Jesus can be summerized here:
jar writes:
I do believe that Jesus is GOD but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me.
I think lots of folk misunderstand the term incarnate. They have, if they even really think about it at all, some idea of incarnate means "God in Human Form" as though it was some costume GOD put on so he could sneak around and spy on the humans.
That makes as little sense theologically IMHO as the idea that Jesus let himself be killed as some blood sacrifice.
Jesus was a teacher. The information we have all says that everything he did during his life was to teach people. If the message was as some have said, that his followers are saved and the bad guys are gonna get it, Jesus lives the wrong story. In that story when it came time to lay hands on Him He would have swung around, flapped open his oilskin slicker, drawn his trusty Ivory handled six-guns, mowed down the Clancy Brothers and rid out of town leaving behind one silver bullet and on the ears of the wind, a hearty "Hi-Ho Silver, Away".
But Jesus is not some Masked Man. The power of the Jesus saga is that He is human.
A God cannot be tempted, Jesus was. And Jesus resisted. And the message is "humans can resist evil".
A God cannot be threated, Jesus was. And Jesus did not respond with more violence. And the message is "humans can try to find ways other than violence".
A God cannot die, Jesus did. And Jesus rose from the dead. And the message is "all humans will rise from the dead".
Just as I believe that we must be honest about the great Evil that Christians have done in the past and that Christians are doing now, I believe we must also be honest about what the message was.
It is not that Christians are saved and everyone else is damned.
It is that GOD gave us in the life of Jesus a clear lesson of what a human should do, and more importantly, can do.
And for the record, Dredge...you too have a lot to learn. I disagree with jar in that he believes that all people are saved. I believe that we have to surrender our own will and put our faith in Jesus. To me this is crucial...one cannot (or should not) be allowed to keep their own will and enter heaven. That's what got Lucifer booted out in the first place.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Dredge, posted 07-20-2019 7:44 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 11:32 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 666 of 868 (858525)
07-21-2019 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by jar
07-21-2019 11:32 AM


Re: jars Christianity
jar writes:
Why is your God any different than Ganesha or Thor or Ra or Jupiter or Raven or Coyote?
Because I believe in Him and follow Him. I do not believe any of those other ones nor do I follow them. My God is uniquely my God. You may claim He is as made up as any of the rest of them, but the difference is that I and many others listen to the One we adapt.
You may then argue that this confirms that humans make up God and that your belief hinges on the construct: IF God exists.... You always leave the construct open in the name of logic, reason, and reality. Thus why Dredge questions whether you are a believer. You conclude with a question rather than an answer.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 11:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 1:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 668 of 868 (858531)
07-21-2019 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by jar
07-21-2019 1:23 PM


Re: jars Christianity
Im not 100% convinced that I made Him up. You of course will argue that GOD if GOD exists is likely unlike anything we have thus far imagined.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 1:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 1:28 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 671 of 868 (858543)
07-21-2019 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 669 by jar
07-21-2019 1:28 PM


Phats Crazy Illogical Belief
jar writes:
How is your belief any different than those of someone who follows Coyote or Raven or Thor or Ra or Ganesha or ...
Isn't the only difference what YOU choose to believe?
Objectively, yes. Apparently so, in fact. Actually I believe in One God, personified in the character of Jesus Christ, once objectively human and now eternally God of very God. I also believe that, as was the case with Moses and the magicians, counterfeit spirits have the ability to produce lying signs and wonders. Implication? That there is more than one manifestation of power and of signs and wonders. You will ask how I know that my God is the real One....and this is also my belief-- that there is but One Creator of all seen and unseen. I will admit that my belief is (or appears to be) crazy and illogical....so I wont pretend that it is logical.
I will, of course insist that all of the gods worshipped except mine are the counterfeits. And that will always get challenged.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 1:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 5:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 681 of 868 (859048)
07-27-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by jar
07-21-2019 11:32 AM


Re: jars Christianity
Phat writes:
That's what got Lucifer booted out in the first place.
jar writes:
That's Dante's Inferno Phat. In the Bible Lucifer (aka Satan) is God's servant and tester; even throughout the New Testament.
Looking over Dante's Inferno and Divine Comedy, I see lots that contributed to modern Christian Dogma. The website I visited even alludes to such:
quote:
Dante’s Divine Comedy has flourished for more than 650 years and has been considered a major work since Giovanni Boccaccio wrote a biography of Dante in 1373. (By 1400, at least 12 commentaries had already been written on the poem’s meaning and significance.) The work is a major part of the Western canon...
However I took my theology of Lucifer from the Book Of Revelation. (Revelation 12: 7-10)Granted the pseudo-scholars here at EvC try and nitpick the Bible to death...perhaps frustrated at the lack of knowledge of its contents by many Bible teachers today, but one thing that I believe sets believers and non believing critics apart is the ignorance (of the unbelieving critics) at even understanding the world of spirits, demons, and the Holy Spirit. *sigh*..
and you will again and again ask what precisely I mean. I suppose that from a strictly objective and neutral unbiased stance, I have to play by these silly rules of evidence that reduce the Creator (alive today eternally ) to a mere character in a book. Unlike Long John Silver, Ganesh, Pipsqueak, Og, and the infamous Spaghetti Monster, these characters (God through Jesus and Satan the fallen one) exist outside of the book. (Maybe not to the reader, but there is a difference)
Now, this is not to say that there is a demon behind every coffee cup or an angel on every shoulder. I DO agree with you in that we become the decisions that we make and are responsible for what we do and for how we help others. I agree with you in that I believe that we are judged by what we do and could have done. I also believe that a crucial element in this process is in what we trust...spiritually and actually. For the purposes of this discussion, satan could well be a metaphor for our own carnal nature.
  • Were we given brains so we could willfully refuse to use them?---Not at all. Dantes work was influenced by the political climate of his time...the clash between the Roman Church and the politicians of that day. Dante most definitely used his brain based on how he interpreted spirituality and reality.
    So did Milton.
    jAR writes:
    But I was under the impression that the topic is "Who made God?" and so what does the evidence show?
    It shows that we interpret God to be as we ourselves are influenced by experience. Those who grow up without a strong Father find it harder to relate to the God within their mind, soul, and imagination. That being said, I do not believe that God is limited to books and imaginations.
    jar writes:
    AbE: and surrender to what Phat? It appears that the only surrendering is surrendering your ability to think and question the dogma and surrendering to what the Snake-Oil Salesman tell you the Bible really says rather than what is actually written.
    What does the BCP say about surrender?
    A lot, as I read it. Here is one prayer:
    quote:
    Preserve us with your mighty
    power, that we may not fall into sin, nor be overcome by
    adversity; and in all we do, direct us to the fulfilling of your
    purpose; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

    Thus, Christianity may well be about what you do, could have done, and are charged to do....but part of what we are charged to do is to commune with God as we understand Him and surrender our own egos, fleshly passions, political ideas, and opinions on modern life over to His gracious presence in communion with us. And if you have to ask what that means, Dredge is right...you lack the Holy Spirit.(I believe that you are aware of Gods internal presence but you always ask the rest of us how we would know if we had it or not and what "it" even is. Too many questions for a believer! Why don't you share your answers with us?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 665 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 11:32 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 682 by jar, posted 07-27-2019 5:28 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 686 of 868 (859086)
    07-28-2019 10:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 682 by jar
    07-27-2019 5:28 PM


    Re: jars Christianity
    jar writes:
    And yet again, how can you tell the Holy Spirit from a Bad Burrito?
    Subjective evidence. And to be honest, all I can really tell myself is what I choose to believe based on that subjective experience. I can't and shouldn't convince you. You yourself must draw your own conclusions. Personally, I usually identify bad burritos based on the smell, the expiration date, and if I fail to detect all that, the taste and perhaps the resulting stomach flu.
    Many folk claim that I do not have something yet never explain how to determine if such a thing even exists.
    You are questioned because you always tell us to question what we believe and never give us any personal insights into how *you* determined that GOD(also Jesus and the Holy Spirit) was and is real. You keep forcing us to ask questions of ourselves yet never share insights into your own personal answers regarding whether you believe Jesus is in communion with Christians today and whether or not there is a Holy Spirit. If you dont believe either of those things, you are in the wrong club and may as well relabel your church as a hub of secular philosophy. (and social good,to be fair)
    So what is the test to determine if you have "The Holy Spirit" and what does it mean "to have the Holy Spirit"?
    I agree with you that behavior is the evidence and the gold standard. Forgive me, EvC, for the times I attack you and get snappy and fleshly. I struggle with my carnal nature also.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : added stuff

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 682 by jar, posted 07-27-2019 5:28 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 688 by jar, posted 07-28-2019 10:53 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 687 of 868 (859087)
    07-28-2019 10:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 685 by dwise1
    07-28-2019 12:21 AM


    Re: jars Christianity
    As I've observed, that's just an excuse for escaping responsibility.
    Personally, I'm all for responsibility. I become the decisions I choose to make. One of the decisions that I choose to make is prayer. It works for me in that it gives me time to mull over a situation in my life and bounce it off what I perceive(and believe) to be a superior intelligence to my own flawed self. You must admit that most people prefer comfort to sacrifice, fantasy to reality, and carnality over spirituality. I don't escape or avoid responsibility. In my mind (and world view) it is responsible to pray and ask God for guidance. It would be the same as you meditating and allowing your subconscious to sync with your everyday conscious.
    Making rash and impulse driven decisions is not responsible.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 685 by dwise1, posted 07-28-2019 12:21 AM dwise1 has not replied

      
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