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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1321 of 3207 (858274)
07-19-2019 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1320 by Dredge
07-19-2019 4:42 AM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
So you believe in a god that is not all knowing? Aren't you catholic?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1320 by Dredge, posted 07-19-2019 4:42 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1436 by Dredge, posted 07-22-2019 11:23 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1322 of 3207 (858276)
07-19-2019 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1320 by Dredge
07-19-2019 4:42 AM


Re: Theology, Philosophy, and Facts vs Fiction
I don't know what it means for God to be omniscient.
Since you don’t know, let me define omniscient for you.
It means your god is powerless before the human mind.
It means your god can be defeated by a mere thought.
It means your god is nonexistent.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1320 by Dredge, posted 07-19-2019 4:42 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 1323 of 3207 (858286)
07-19-2019 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1318 by ringo
07-18-2019 5:14 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:
You have not explained in any way how the concept of God is inherently irrational. You just keep asserting it. If you want to redefine irrational" along with "know", etc., it's going to be difficult to figure out what your "context" is.
Are you serious?
Have you not read any of the over 1300 posts in this thread?
Here we go again:
Irrational (from the dictionary): not logical or reasonable
Irrational (in the specific context of this discussion): thinking/proposing/claiming that an idea exists in reality when there is no evidence to support that the idea actually exists in reality in the first place.
Sounds very "not logical or reasonable" to me - do you have any disagreement?
Now... onto God.
Do you agree that the idea that God exists in reality has no evidence to support it?
If you do not agree - please provide the evidence.
If you do agree - then the idea that God exists in reality is irrational.
It's not an overly complicated explanation and I must have provided it to you 4 or 5 times now.
As long as the logic is internally consistent, the concept of God is not irrational.
But the logic isn't internally consistent... unless you'd like to explain how believing something actually exists without any evidence to suggest that it exists in the first place is actually "rational?"
You will have to explain how banana keys are rational.
You will have to explain how crab chairs are rational.
If you do that - then I will fully accept that the idea of God existing without any evidence that God exists in the first place is also rational.
Without doing that... it is not logically internally consistent.
Thus, it is not different from the concept of sharkfin soup.
Sharkfin soup has evidence of it's existence.
God does not.
You seem to be avoiding this massive, massive difference between the two items.
If you contrive to search only in places where you don't expect to find them, you can claim non-existence of either, but your claim will not be very convincing.
#1. Is the idea rational?
#2. Where is the idea to be found?
#3. Look for the idea.
Sharfin soup gets past #1.
Banana keys, crab chairs and God do not.
This is your error.
Without being able to describe how you're dealing with this error of yours - your critic is nullified.
And I still know that God does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1318 by ringo, posted 07-18-2019 5:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1325 by Tangle, posted 07-19-2019 11:40 AM Stile has replied
 Message 1327 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 11:51 AM Stile has replied
 Message 1329 by 1.61803, posted 07-19-2019 12:12 PM Stile has replied
 Message 1333 by Phat, posted 07-19-2019 1:04 PM Stile has replied
 Message 1340 by Phat, posted 07-19-2019 1:32 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1324 of 3207 (858300)
07-19-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1319 by Sarah Bellum
07-18-2019 11:54 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
It's irrational.
You assert but you don't explain. What is wrong with the internal logic?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1319 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-18-2019 11:54 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1326 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 11:47 AM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1325 of 3207 (858301)
07-19-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1323 by Stile
07-19-2019 9:13 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
#1. Is the idea rational?
Your problem is that the idea of a god *is* rational. In another context we'd call it a hypothesis.
We then look for evidence - *that's* where it fails.
But because we can't know whether we've looked for evidence in every place that it should be, we can never absolutely know. We can just form a reasonable conclusion based what we do know.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1323 by Stile, posted 07-19-2019 9:13 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1393 by Stile, posted 07-22-2019 8:14 AM Tangle has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1326 of 3207 (858303)
07-19-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1324 by ringo
07-19-2019 11:36 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
If it ever was rational to imagine a thunderbolt-throwing being on a mountaintop back in Classical times (when humans may not have known any better), it certainly isn't nowadays.
For the same reason there is no rationality behind a "modern" god like those of the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims etc. (or even the "god that failed" of the Marxists).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1324 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1328 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 11:52 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1327 of 3207 (858304)
07-19-2019 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1323 by Stile
07-19-2019 9:13 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
Irrational (from the dictionary): not logical or reasonable
So explain how the concept of God is not logical or reasonable.
Stile writes:
Irrational (in the specific context of this discussion): thinking/proposing/claiming that an idea exists in reality when there is no evidence to support that the idea actually exists in reality in the first place.
But that doesn't agree with the definition that you just posted. You can't just arbitrarily dictate that something must exist to be a rational idea.
Stile writes:
Sounds very "not logical or reasonable" to me - do you have any disagreement?
Of course I disagree. See above.
Stile writes:
Do you agree that the idea that God exists in reality has no evidence to support it?
Again, evidence has nothing to do with it. If there was evidence to support the premise of God, then the conclusion that God exists would be true. But the premise does not have to be true for the logic to be valid.
Stile writes:
But the logic isn't internally consistent... unless you'd like to explain how believing something actually exists without any evidence to suggest that it exists in the first place is actually "rational?"
The logic is not about existence.
Stile writes:
You will have to explain how banana keys are rational.
You will have to explain how crab chairs are rational.
Galloping goalposts. I have never said that either of those is rational.
I have said that the concept of God is no less rational than the concept of sharkfin soup. The evidence for either may or may not be available - depending on where you look. You can contrive not to find evidence for sharkfin soup by deliberately looking in the wrong place. That does not mean that sharkfin soup does not exist and it does not mean that the idea of sharkfin soup is irrational.
Stile writes:
Sharkfin soup has evidence of it's existence.
God does not.
Goalposts moving again. You said yourself that you looked only on the McDonalds menu for sharkfin soup. As far as your investigation is concerned, sharkfin soup does not exist. And by your logic, the concept of sharkfin soup is irrational.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1323 by Stile, posted 07-19-2019 9:13 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1399 by Stile, posted 07-22-2019 9:10 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1328 of 3207 (858305)
07-19-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1326 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 11:47 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
If it ever was rational to imagine a thunderbolt-throwing being on a mountaintop back in Classical times (when humans may not have known any better), it certainly isn't nowadays.
What, specifically, is irrational about it? We have thunderbolt-throwing technology of our own now.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1326 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 11:47 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1330 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 12:48 PM ringo has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 1329 of 3207 (858306)
07-19-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1323 by Stile
07-19-2019 9:13 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
And I still know that God does not exist.
Now you are venturing into the fallacy of argument from repetition.
You can say it until the cows come home and that will not make it true.
Stile writes:
Irrational (in the specific context of this discussion): thinking/proposing/claiming that an idea exists in reality when there is no evidence to support that the idea actually exists in reality in the first place.
The idea of multiverses is un-evidenced and yet it is a theory in QM.
Just because something does not seem rational does not mean it does not exist.
Multiverse - Wikipedia
We do not know yet. But for some reason you do. According to your reasoning you must know there is no multiverses either. Maybe you can debunk this theory based on you incredible notion of banana keys and crab chairs as well.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1323 by Stile, posted 07-19-2019 9:13 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1394 by Stile, posted 07-22-2019 8:22 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1330 of 3207 (858309)
07-19-2019 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1328 by ringo
07-19-2019 11:52 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Are you asking what's irrational about the image of a bearded, naked man on a mountaintop gripping a chunk of glowng, superheated plasma with an electrical current running through it, preparing to propel it down to the ground?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1331 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 12:54 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1331 of 3207 (858310)
07-19-2019 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1330 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 12:48 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
Are you asking what's irrational about the image of a bearded, naked man on a mountaintop gripping a chunk of glowng, superheated plasma with an electrical current running through it, preparing to propel it down to the ground?
Yes.
"a chunk of glowng, superheated plasma with an electrical current running through it" is your imagination. Substitute rocket-propelled grenade and then explain how the image is irrational.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1330 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 12:48 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1332 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 12:57 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1334 by Phat, posted 07-19-2019 1:05 PM ringo has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 596 days)
Posts: 826
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1332 of 3207 (858311)
07-19-2019 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1331 by ringo
07-19-2019 12:54 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
So the ancient Greeks believed in a handsome naked man on the top of Mount Olympus with . . . a rocket-propelled grenade?
I'm still detecting irrationality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1331 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 12:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1335 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 1:08 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1333 of 3207 (858312)
07-19-2019 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1323 by Stile
07-19-2019 9:13 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
How is the idea of God so irrational to begin with? I think that ringos idea of eternally existing chemicals that become what we are today is more irrational...but some people prefer that hypothetical line of thought for one reason only---we can do the maths that support it. Which gets back to humans defining reality on strictly human terms...which is not entirely rational when imagining alternative possibilities.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1323 by Stile, posted 07-19-2019 9:13 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1338 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 1:11 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1395 by Stile, posted 07-22-2019 8:24 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1334 of 3207 (858313)
07-19-2019 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1331 by ringo
07-19-2019 12:54 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
I would suggest that rocket powered grenades are irrational.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1331 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 12:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1336 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 1:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1335 of 3207 (858314)
07-19-2019 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1332 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 12:57 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:
So the ancient Greeks believed in a handsome naked man on the top of Mount Olympus with . . . a rocket-propelled grenade?
I'm still detecting irrationality.
Get your detector fixed. The Greeks may have described it in a different way but there is nothing irrational about the idea.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1332 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 12:57 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1337 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 1:11 PM ringo has replied

  
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