I Know That God Does Not Exist

Absolutely it should limit rationality.If it didn't, we would all be constantly wondering about banana keys and crab chairs.
But we don't - because there's no evidence for them.Just like God - no evidence.I think what you intend is something along the lines of "this shouldn't limit motivation."
Which I do agree with.Feel free to search for God, or believe in God, or gain whatever-subjective-benefits you can from God.
God is a valid, useful, and powerful tool (for some) for such things.But... if you move into suggesting there's actually a rational reason to consider God's actual existence... you're going to need some evidence.
Without that evidence... I know that God does not exist. Not true. Many believe and do not care if God actually exists or not. They have experiences for themselves and would never offer their subjective feelings as something that should persuade others, or be considered rational or logical. Wrong again.
I am very open to non-physical evidence.
It just has to evidence - that's all. If you want to define "irrational" as something other than "that which is not logical or reasonable" - that's up to you.
I'll stick with the normal definition of the word. My argument appears to be rational/reasonable to all.
Or, at least, no one here has yet been able to offer a valid rational/reasonable rebuttal or critic of it.

How so? Probably none.
But I'm not that kind of person.Show me evidence, and I'll change my position.

I *have* explained. The idea that the universe has been created by some super-powerful body that we traditionally call a god isn't intrinsically irrational. Just very unlikely. We do not know that. We may never know that.All we can say is that there is insufficient evidence to support the God hypothesis and that so far the more we learn, the less likely it is to be correct. Belief is not rational. Without sufficient evidence I see no reason to accept the god hypothesis so I don't. *That's* rational. Nevertheless, it's still a possibility that I'm wrong. That's also rational. We don't know, we form a provisional conclusion. Anything more becomes a belief. Which is irrational.

I'm going to ignore most of your reply in order to focus on what I think is the basic level of our disagreement. I don't understand your disagreement here.
How does it not agree?I'm not saying something has to actually exist.
I'm saying there needs to be evidence that something could exist in order to hold a rational/reasonable/logical idea that there's a possibility it might exist.Examples: #1 - Stile and ringo are both sitting in a room when a noise is heard.A sound is made behind us.
Stile: "What was that?"
ringo: "I don't know."
Stile: "I think there's a possibility something might exist behind us."
ringo: "I agree." #2 - Stile and ringo are both sitting in a room when no noise is heard.No sound is made behind us.
Stile: "What was that?"
ringo: "What was what?"
Stile: "I think there's a possibility something might exist behind us."
ringo: "I don't think so." Conclusions:I am proposing that in #1 I cannot say "I know that nothing exists that made a sound behind us." - there is evidence to suggest it might exist, even if we don't know yet (we didn't turn around.)I am proposing that in #2 I can say "I know that nothing exists that made a sound behind us." - there is no evidence to suggest it might exist in the first place. The idea that there's something there is irrational.Do you agree with these conclusions and this usage of "irrational?"

But how is this rational in any way?I'm saying it's irrational because there's nothing to suggest that it's a possibility.
I'm saying it's irrational because we've suggested "God" as an answer for many various "unknowns" in the past over the last few thousand years - and every time we've been able to eventually test it - it turns out God is not the answer. Therefore, there's an in-place pattern of suggesting "God" as an answer and having that answer be wrong.Therefore, if we rationally follow the pattern: God is not the creator of the universe.
As well, there is no logical reason to suggest that God is the creator in the first place.How is it rational to suggest that God actually is a possibility?
-Because millions of people believe in God? - This is not a rational reason, this is the logical fallacy of popularity
-Because we traditionally associated God to things such as this in the past? - This is not a rational reason, as the pattern of associating-God-with-things has been shown to lead to be incorrect. All the time. Then suggest the hypothesis that we do not know yet.
Remember - a hypothesis is more than an idea, it is based on evidence.
An hypothesis must be falsifiable.
An hypothesis must have a valid reason to suggest it's possibility in the first place.
So far all you've offered is "God might have created the universe." - This is not a valid hypothesis. Although it is (theoretically) falsifiable, it has no evidence to suggest it may be true in the first place. May as well have the "hypothesis" about banana keys and crab chairs - but I do hope you understand why those are not valid hypothesis, yes? There is no valid "God hypothesis." Therefore there's nothing to even suggest in the first place in order to "have a possibility it could be wrong."

I know what you're saying, I disagree and I've said why.As far as I'm concerned there's nothing to suggest that there's 11 dimensions. But it's a hypothesis being tested that can probably never be able to be confirmed.

Maybe as far as you're concerned but there are reasons to suggest 11 dimensions. They are powerful reasons if you know the history of physics. They're enough to create an hypothesis. There are even ongoing experiments to try to test the idea. There is nothing to support the hypothesis yet and it could very well be wrong. However, using Stile's definition of "rational" (which seems to be close to what almost everyone uses in regular day-to-day life) the idea of 11 dimensions is "rational".

The following argument is well presented. You say you are objective and await evidence, but why is the testimony of others who have thought long and hard about such things disallowed as evidence? Consider:

quote:

---

Does God exist? Here are six straightforward reasons to believe that God is really there.

​

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

​

But first consider this. When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding his existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

​

1. The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

​

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

​

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

​

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

​

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

​

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

​

It has wide margin between its boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

​

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that various chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

​

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

​

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

​

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

​

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

​

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

​

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

​

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

---

I might point out that you seem not to want God to exist with "all your heart". In fact, you have said more than once that you would be perfectly happy without Him. I believe that in your lifetime that will change, but I have no evidence as to why your attitude will change. And I fully understand why many of you here at EvC are hesitant to even want to find this God ...this Jesus whom we preach. Some of that has to do with losing your free will, and much of it has to do with the loony characters that we are. Who would want to gleefully become irrational and insane?? But let us continue...

quote:

---

2. The universe had a start - what caused it?

​

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

​

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9

​

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10

​

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

---

Hawking claims the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. John Lennox disagrees. The jury is indeed out.

quote:

---

3. The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

​

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

​

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."11

​

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."12

---

Comments?

quote:

---

4. The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

​

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

​

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.13

​

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

​

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

​

5. We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

​

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

​

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

​

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

​

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me. {and finally...Jesus Himself. Gods human character.

​

6. Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

​

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."14 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."15

​

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.16

​

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although he views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and he came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.

​

Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."17 This is God, in action.

​

Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."18

​

God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ.

---

Overall a well presented reasoning from a former atheist.The difference being that most of the atheists here at EvC have no compelling reason to even seek knowledge apart from cold statistical evidence. I believe that this will change.The concept of Jesus Christ will either become loved or hated with a passion. There will one day be no indifference. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

You're example is wrong.There is math that explains our current understanding.
If this math is rationally and reasonably extended beyond our current understanding - it suggests 11 dimensions.
This is evidence.There is no evidence for God.Show me the math that can be rationally or reasonably extended to suggest that God could exist. I understand you disagree.
What you haven't done is describe a valid, rational, reasonable explanation as to "why" you disagree.
Every attempt you've made to describe 'why' you disagree can be shown to either not apply (the reason is applicable to your example, but not to God - like this 11 dimensions idea) or it's simply wrong and shown to be wrong.That's why I don't agree with your dissent.

Because 'testimony' is not evidence.
Popularity is not evidence.
Tradition is not evidence.All of these things are known to be terrible reasons to try and "know" things. Because they are highly likely to be incorrect. Stop spamming me and attempting to overwhelm me with garbage.
I already took the time to get into and explain why one of your other spamming requests was invalid. You didn't stick with any of those arguments - why would this package of spam be any better?If you think something is very convincing - pick it.
Let's discuss it.
One at a time.
If you think something better - lay aside your initial topic and shift to another.But do it one at a time.Your previous spam message shows that your "spam" is nothing more than subjective desires.
If you think you have more, or that subjective desires should be taken to imply truth about reality - please attempt such avenues.Just do it one at a time, like a reasonable person.

I thought this deserved it's own reply.Thor, Ra and Zeus are not either "loved or hated with a passion."
They are simply given a generic "meh" of traditional beliefs that are now known to be incorrect.I think that Jesus Christ will one day join them.
Not as someone who will either be "loved or hated with a passion."
Just as another traditional belief that is now known to be incorrect. Deserving of the same feeling of "meh" we all give to Thor, Ra and Zeus.

I didn't say it was an irrational hypothesis - it's certainly rational. Whether it can every be tested is another matter - it seems doubtful, but it's all beyond my pay grade.But it seems equally reasonable to me to say that the god hypothesis is rational in that it's a belief shared by billions who claim personal experience of it and there's a host of philosophical argument that can be used to support it. (None of which impresses me at all but that's my belief at work.)All Stile is doing is attempting to rule out a possibility of a god by fiddling around with words. That impresses me even less.A the moment we don't possess the data to rule a non-interventionist god thing out entirely, it must remain a a possibility regardless of how slight.

If you accept the premise that trillions of other universes
may exist then how do you know in some other universe crabchairs and banana keys do not exist?

"Possibly correct because of popularity" is a logical fallacy.
Logical fallacies are not rational.There is also no philosophical argument that can be used to support God in a rational sense.
That is - you cannot use any philosophical argument to support "God" and also not use the exact same philosophical argument to support "Zeus" or "Thor" or "Ra" or "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" or banana keys or crab chairs or any other everyone-understands-it-is-not-real non-evidenced entity.In this sense - it's either irrational to suggest "God" as a likely conclusion but not allow the FSM or banana keys or crab chairs to have the same status.
OR
It becomes an argument of popularity again - which is a logical fallacy. I'm just using the definition we use all the time and applying it to God.
It is, actually, you who are "fiddling with words" in order to apply something to God but not apply it to banana keys or crab chairs.Hypocrisy also does not sway me into acknowledging your disagreement as valid.

There are mathematical understanding of our current universe.These valid mathematical understandings can be extended (by the rules of mathematics) to suggest that other universes may exist.
This is evidence that other universes may exist.
Therefore - I cannot say "I know that other universes do not exist."There is no evidence that banana keys and crab chairs exist.
Unless you know of some?
Do you know of any valid mathematical understandings of our current universe that can be extended (by the rules of mathematics) to suggest that banana keys or crab chairs might exist?
Do you know of any other avenue of valid evidence that may suggest that banana keys or crab chairs might exist?The current answer is "no."There is evidence for the possibility of other universes.
There is no evidence for the possibility of banana keys or crab chairs.That's the difference.
If you are unable to understand this difference, please attempt to describe why.
I have another post to ringo in Message 1399 describing this same difference:

quote:

---

Examples:

​

#1 - Stile and ringo are both sitting in a room when a noise is heard.

​

A sound is made behind us.
Stile: "What was that?"
ringo: "I don't know."
Stile: "I think there's a possibility something might exist behind us."
ringo: "I agree."

​

#2 - Stile and ringo are both sitting in a room when no noise is heard.

​

No sound is made behind us.
Stile: "What was that?"
ringo: "What was what?"
Stile: "I think there's a possibility something might exist behind us."
ringo: "I don't think so."

​

Conclusions:

​

I am proposing that in #1 I cannot say "I know that nothing exists that made a sound behind us." - there is evidence to suggest it might exist, even if we don't know yet (we didn't turn around.)

​

I am proposing that in #2 I can say "I know that nothing exists that made a sound behind us." - there is no evidence to suggest it might exist in the first place. The idea that there's something there is irrational.

​

Do you agree with these conclusions and this usage of "irrational?"

---

If you do not think this difference is worthy of differentiation - please explain why.