Who Made God?

Maybe I don't understand judgement as it applies in your dogma. I'm just going by what the Bible actually says. It's pretty much the same thing, though. If you decide that somebody is not a Christian, you are saying they're going to Hell.

Your interpretation of the Nicene Creed is childishly superficial, misinformed and false. It’s also fundamentally irrational: How could God stop being God and become a mere creature - the man, Jesus? This is as absurd as your other contention, that a mere man - Jesus - became God! Oh, so you know better than the gospel authors, who wrote under in inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Your claim to being a Christian is getting more laughable but the minute.
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9).Btw, I notice you didn’t bother to answer any of the theological questions in my earlier post. That’s hardly surprising - your false theology is so easily refuted. You’re delusional. The divinity of the earthly Jesus is the most basic Christians belief. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, Belief in the true Incarnation [ie, Jesus was truly God and truly human] of the Son of God is the distinctive sign of Christian faith (#463). To deny that core doctrine is to declare yourself a heretic, at the very least. Worse, according to the following verses, it makes you antichrist:
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. Anyone who denies the Son does not have the Father. (1John 2:22-23)
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2John 7)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist - 1John 4:1-3 .Can someone who qualifies as antichrist also be a Christian? Of course not!Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Not only do you not understand Christian judgement, but you are being a hypocrite: You tell me not to judge jar, but by doing so you are judging me! So your nonsense concept of Biblical judgement fails at the most fundamental level. In that case, you need to consider the following verses:
Do not judge by appearances, but JUDGE with right judgement. (John 7:24). Oh dear Jesus says we can JUDGE others. My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. (Ezk 3:18-19)But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be \[b\]accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:8-9). Uh oh - there’s some serious judgement going on here! Fake Christians who don’t preach the same doctrine as the apostles are JUDGED to be accused. Where did you get that silly idea? It certainly isn’t a Catholic point of view. I have no idea at all who is going to hell and I’m not in the least bit qualified to make that judgement (in fact, no human is). Furthermore, I believe that many non-Christians will be saved and go to heaven. Nevertheless, denying the divinity of the earthly Jesus (as jar does) is a serious heresy and those who subscribe to such a view are not considered to be part of the body of Christ (for example, Jehovah’s Witnesses are considered to be fake Christians). Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Yet that is what the Nicene Creed says.

I'm not doing any judging. I'm not telling you you're not a Christian. I'm telling you that your Bible tells you not to judge jar. Even if I was a hypocrite, that would not change what the Bible says. You continue to ignore context. Jesus wasn't talking about Christians judging each other. Look at verse 23:

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23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

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He was talking about the Jews judging Him. Context. That's about pointing out faults in other Christians, not declaring that they are not Christians. Well, now you're wandering pretty far afield. There were no Christians in Ezekiel's day. Context. That one is about preaching false gospels - e.g. ignoring what the Bible says about judgement, like you do. It's the fundamentalist point of view. That may be the Catholic point of view. It's not the Bible point of view.

Looking over Dante's Inferno and Divine Comedy, I see lots that contributed to modern Christian Dogma. The website I visited even alludes to such:

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Dante’s Divine Comedy has flourished for more than 650 years and has been considered a major work since Giovanni Boccaccio wrote a biography of Dante in 1373. (By 1400, at least 12 commentaries had already been written on the poem’s meaning and significance.) The work is a major part of the Western canon...

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However I took my theology of Lucifer from the Book Of Revelation. (Revelation 12: 7-10)Granted the pseudo-scholars here at EvC try and nitpick the Bible to death...perhaps frustrated at the lack of knowledge of its contents by many Bible teachers today, but one thing that I believe sets believers and non believing critics apart is the ignorance (of the unbelieving critics) at even understanding the world of spirits, demons, and the Holy Spirit. *sigh*..
and you will again and again ask what precisely I mean. I suppose that from a strictly objective and neutral unbiased stance, I have to play by these silly rules of evidence that reduce the Creator (alive today eternally ) to a mere character in a book. Unlike Long John Silver, Ganesh, Pipsqueak, Og, and the infamous Spaghetti Monster, these characters (God through Jesus and Satan the fallen one) exist outside of the book. (Maybe not to the reader, but there is a difference)Now, this is not to say that there is a demon behind every coffee cup or an angel on every shoulder. I DO agree with you in that we become the decisions that we make and are responsible for what we do and for how we help others. I agree with you in that I believe that we are judged by what we do and could have done. I also believe that a crucial element in this process is in what we trust...spiritually and actually. For the purposes of this discussion, satan could well be a metaphor for our own carnal nature.

Were we given brains so we could willfully refuse to use them?---Not at all. Dantes work was influenced by the political climate of his time...the clash between the Roman Church and the politicians of that day. Dante most definitely used his brain based on how he interpreted spirituality and reality.

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So did Milton.

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jAR writes:

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But I was under the impression that the topic is "Who made God?" and so what does the evidence show?

It shows that we interpret God to be as we ourselves are influenced by experience. Those who grow up without a strong Father find it harder to relate to the God within their mind, soul, and imagination. That being said, I do not believe that God is limited to books and imaginations.

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jar writes:

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AbE: and surrender to what Phat? It appears that the only surrendering is surrendering your ability to think and question the dogma and surrendering to what the Snake-Oil Salesman tell you the Bible really says rather than what is actually written.

What does the BCP say about surrender?

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A lot, as I read it. Here is one prayer:

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Preserve us with your mighty
power, that we may not fall into sin, nor be overcome by
adversity; and in all we do, direct us to the fulfilling of your
purpose; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

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Thus, Christianity may well be about what you do, could have done, and are charged to do....but part of what we are charged to do is to commune with God as we understand Him and surrender our own egos, fleshly passions, political ideas, and opinions on modern life over to His gracious presence in communion with us. And if you have to ask what that means, Dredge is right...you lack the Holy Spirit.(I believe that you are aware of Gods internal presence but you always ask the rest of us how we would know if we had it or not and what "it" even is. Too many questions for a believer! Why don't you share your answers with us?

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

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You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

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Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile

And yet again, how can you tell the Holy Spirit from a Bad Burrito?The question still remains?Many folk claim that I do not have something yet never explain how to determine if such a thing even exists.So what is the test to determine if you have "The Holy Spirit" and what does it mean "to have the Holy Spirit"?Edited by jar, : appallin spallin is ---> if

Former fundamentalist minister, now "America's Leading Atheist", Dan Barker describes it in his book godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists. A fundamentalist preacher will go off on a tangent in which he preaches stuff that's not only not in the Bible, but even conflicts with biblical teachings. And the entire congregation eats up every word he says, because "the Holy Spirit is moving and speaking through him!". He described having seen it with other preachers and experienced it himself, ironically when he was starting to express his own growing doubts and he got positive feedback for what the Holy Spirit had said through him.There's also my own misgivings about the doctrine that the Holy Spirit guides us all towards the proper and truthful interpretation of Scripture. And yet that same Holy Spirit appears to be telling every single individual something different from the others, thus contributing ever more to the splintering of Protestant Christianity. British philosopher Bertrand Russell (Why I am not a Christian) once said that when a Catholic becomes a freethinker then he becomes an atheist, but when a Protestant becomes a freethinker then he just founds a new church. Catholics believe in one Universal (AKA "Catholic") Doctrine so the only alternative is heresy and atheism, whereas Protestants have a long tradition of splitting off from previous churches over minor theological disputes, so their alternative is to form a new church. Former most extremely fundamentalist Ed Babinski expressed it in this cartoon of the evolutionary tree of Christianity: Now, most Christian denominations teach closed revelation, that all that was "revealed" a couple millennia ago is all that God will reveal to us and "Revelation is closed". That makes tons of sense for an established religion for whom further revelation could prove disasterous. Though how new interpretations through that highly capricious Holy Spirit are supposed to fit into that, I cannot follow ("Dammit, Jim! I'm an engineer, not a fecking apologist!").The Mormons buck that system by believing in continuing revelation. How do they receive those new revelations? Through their dreams, and the higher your rank in the Mormon hierarchy the more important are your dreams. When Mormons gather together and someone starts to talk about a dream he had had, suddenly everybody starts listening very closely.So when somebody starts talking about the Holy Spirit, just what the feck is he talking about? What it looks like is an excuse to go all loosey-goosey on what you are supposed to follow and think. An excuse for bad behavior on par with "cheap grace" in which you can commit any sin you want to just so long as you can justify it as serving your god (please remind me again of which Christian god is served by lies and deception) plus all you need to do is ask your invisible friend god for forgiveness and you are certain to receive that forgiveness (an invisible friend who refuses to automatically grant forgiveness is a sign of very serious psychological problems that you really need to seek professional help for, like before you start killing lots of people around you).

The "Not perfect but forgiven" card sells well.What can be seen and what can be tested is behavior.When someone explains how to Test "Jesus is alive" or "born again" or "have you been saved" or "touched by the Holy Spirit" they may someday rise to the level of behavior.

Uh I hate that bullshirt! (watch some The Good Place episodes on Netflix to suggest some Faith-inspired censorship workarounds).As I've observed, that's just an excuse for escaping responsibility. Everything you do is imperfect and you "stumble" all the time, so nothing you do is "perfect" but the important part is that you are "forgiven". Whatever you do, you will most likely mess up, so your eternal out is that your god will forgive you when you mess up. But then when you start to push it, knowing where you are messing up, so you learn quickly where you can push it -- and in your quiet time with your god, you can ask for and receive forgiveness for your many transgressions."Not perfect but forgiven". Jeez! You don't even have to make any effort at all to do the right thing. "I'm forgiven, so I'm cool!" What about the other person? Your transgression against that person still exists. The consequences of that transgression still exists. The suffering that that person experienced because of your transgression still exists. So you are personally forgiven, but how does that ever possibly address your transgressions against that other person? The guy you wrong so very much never ever sees any restitution for it. Complete and utter moral nonsense!Those "true Christians" are just deflecting the gross immorality of their actions. The typical excuse that their religion offers them.

Subjective evidence. And to be honest, all I can really tell myself is what I choose to believe based on that subjective experience. I can't and shouldn't convince you. You yourself must draw your own conclusions. Personally, I usually identify bad burritos based on the smell, the expiration date, and if I fail to detect all that, the taste and perhaps the resulting stomach flu. You are questioned because you always tell us to question what we believe and never give us any personal insights into how *you* determined that GOD(also Jesus and the Holy Spirit) was and is real. You keep forcing us to ask questions of ourselves yet never share insights into your own personal answers regarding whether you believe Jesus is in communion with Christians today and whether or not there is a Holy Spirit. If you dont believe either of those things, you are in the wrong club and may as well relabel your church as a hub of secular philosophy. (and social good,to be fair) I agree with you that behavior is the evidence and the gold standard. Forgive me, EvC, for the times I attack you and get snappy and fleshly. I struggle with my carnal nature also.Edited by Thugpreacha, : added stuff

Personally, I'm all for responsibility. I become the decisions I choose to make. One of the decisions that I choose to make is prayer. It works for me in that it gives me time to mull over a situation in my life and bounce it off what I perceive(and believe) to be a superior intelligence to my own flawed self. You must admit that most people prefer comfort to sacrifice, fantasy to reality, and carnality over spirituality. I don't escape or avoid responsibility. In my mind (and world view) it is responsible to pray and ask God for guidance. It would be the same as you meditating and allowing your subconscious to sync with your everyday conscious.Making rash and impulse driven decisions is not responsible.

Again though, you do not even present any subjective evidence or any description of how to identify the Holy Spirit or differentiate between the Holy Spirit and some entity claiming to be the Holy Spirit.No one doubts that you believe what you claim to believe just as I don't doubt the Dredge believes what he claims to believe but everyone can read and verify what is in the Nicene Creed and in each variation, permutation and iteration since 325 CE.Each individual can actually read what is written in Genesis 2 & 3.Each individual can actually go to the Bible and look at each version of the Road to Damascus story or the Great Commission and see how the versions evolve and change as they are modified in every retelling.Everyone can actually read the Flood stories in Genesis 6 & 7 to compare them and list the differences and in incompatibilities.Everyone can read the description of the God character in Genesis 1 vs the God character in Genesis 2 & 3.Everyone can read Genesis 2 & 3 and see that the serpent told the truth, the God character did not and the God character punished Adam & Eve even though the God character specifically denied them the capability even know who to obey.Beliefs exist.But unless there is some way to test the beliefs they remain simply personal beliefs.There are and have been many, many, many, many, many verifiable examples of Gods. Each God has had a core of believers.Most of the Gods, just as when looking at the descriptions of God found in the Bible stories, are mutually exclusive. The God found in Genesis 1 is entirely different, a polar opposite of the God in Genesis 2 & 3.So back to the question of "Who Made God" all of the evidence shows that Man made God.

Only because we choose to exalt our own reasoning and understanding of what we read over actually surrendering to Him. Of course you always ask how we can tell. Its what you likely have always asked yourself which may bwe why you refuse to surrender your intellect. you prefer sitting back and describing God as a character in a book. Just drink the kool aid, jar. it wont kill you.

That is not even word salad Phat. Not only does it have absolutely no meaning it requires an impossibility. We have no way to even surrendr reasoning other then a conscious decision to simply not think and even that requires reasoning.Stop just posting utter nonsense. And no one ever provides an answer. Is there a God character in Genesis 1?Is there a God Character in Genesis 2&3?And are there not literally thousands of different God characters in the books?I simply point out what is actually there Phat.And the evidence, all of the evidence ever presented answers the question "Who Made God" with "Man Made God!"