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Author Topic:   The 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination Campaign
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 121 of 505 (859134)
07-28-2019 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Chiroptera
07-28-2019 5:35 PM


How strong is the opposition to decriminalizing illegal border crossings?
quote:
There isn't much support for decriminalizing crossing the border illegally.
https://thehill.com/...il-fines-for-illegal-border-crossings
It looks like 41% want to make illegal border crossings a crime verses 31% who want the crossing to result in a fine.
Only 67% of Republicans want illegal immigration to be a crime.
quote:
The results were based on interviews with 1,001 registered voters conducted between July 5 and 6. There is a margin of effort or plus of 3.1 percentage points.
The question of whether those crossing the border illegally should be punished as criminals has come up in the presidential race.
In the second night of the Democratic debate, nine of the 10 Democrats on stage raised their hands to indicate they did not think those crossing the border illegally should face a criminal punishment.
....
The treatment of people detained at the border for crossing illegally to obtain asylum in the United States has also become a major political issue. An internal government report released last week described squalid and over-crowded conditions at facilities holding people who crossed the border.
Tess Bonn
This was July 8, 2019.
I am not sure there is evidence (unless I am missing something) that backs up the comment that there "isn't much support" for decriminalizing illegal border crossings.
My source (above) indicates the opposition to decriminalizing is not exactly insurmountable, as it is simply a 4 in 10 plurality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Chiroptera, posted 07-28-2019 5:35 PM Chiroptera has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 122 of 505 (859135)
07-28-2019 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Chiroptera
07-28-2019 5:35 PM


The decriminalizing question might have been mistaken for Open Borders.
Home of the Marist Poll | Polls, Analysis, Learning, and More
It showed 66% oppose decriminalizing verses 27% who support.
People probably feel it was a question about Open Borders.
The specific issue of a fine verses a crime shows a not-so-strong opposition to the technical term "decriminalization". 42% verses 31%. See my above post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Chiroptera, posted 07-28-2019 5:35 PM Chiroptera has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 123 of 505 (859136)
07-29-2019 12:52 AM


Direct link to the actual poll.
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/...Tables_1907190926.pdf#page=3
Scroll about 70% down for poll.
"Do you think decriminalizing illegal border crossings is a good idea or
a bad idea?"
It will sound like a question about Open Borders to most people.
47% of Democrats say it is a bad idea verses 45% who say it is a good idea.
Overall 66% say bad idea. 27% say good idea.
Decriminalization is a technical word. It sounds like one is making illegal immigration 100% legal.
But the word requires a definition so people know what it means.
But see this poll which, again, is specific.
https://thehill.com/...il-fines-for-illegal-border-crossings
41% say illegal immigration should be a crime.
32% say it should result in the offender (notice the language of GUILT in the description) getting a fine alone.
Now, there will be complications when one has to keep going deeper.
The questions will come.
What should come after the fine?
And so on.

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 737 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 124 of 505 (859335)
07-31-2019 12:14 AM


David Axelrod is a liar ( telling disgusting lies about decriminalization)
(a friend just told me this, and I am not sure if he is accurately quoting what Axelrod just said during post-debate commentary on CNN)
Apparently, Axelrod just said that Democrats have to drop "the decriminalization card" because "Democrats need to face the fact that even many Democrats simply don't agree with decriminalization".
The truth is that only 67% of Republicans will say illegal immigrants should be criminals for crossing the border without papers.
(33% are unsure or think it should result in a fine as opposed to getting a criminal charge -felony or misdemeanor)
Right now, illegal border crossers are charged with a misdemeanor criminal offense. If it is the first time getting caught anyway. (62% overstay a VISA, mind you, and that is the same thing as somebody who lacks papers when they initially come over)
Amazing that the much maligned Koch-brothers have made it clear they will support pro-trade, pro-immigration Democrats over Trump Republicans for every federal office, yet Axelrod says Democrats should drop pro-immigration policies to win those voters who are politically on the margins (swing voters).
Amazing that only 41% of Americans start off with a position supporting criminal charges against (what are currently ILLEGAL status) illegal immigrants for their border.
Axelrod wants Democratic candidates to drop decriminalization as an election issue, so they can be salable to the electorate.
Democratic candidates could, actually, fight for making migrants SAFE FROM CRIMINAL CHARGES, and the fight - ALONE - would hold those who support criminally charging migrants into a territory that is below 50% (or no worse than the low-mid 50's percentage PRESENTLY, with further progress in eroding the anti-immigration support in future years beyond 2019/2020).
Fight for just public policy, and let the political winds blow as they may. I don't care if there is a narrow loss TODAY, when 2-4 years down the road there will be support.
I just heard Axelrod (11:13 PM Central talk crap to Senator Warren LIVE) say the Americans don't agree with her on decriminalization.
My friend is correct on the general report he gave me. I think he might have fudged the "card" use by Axelrod, however.

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2019 2:03 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 505 (859397)
07-31-2019 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by LamarkNewAge
07-31-2019 12:14 AM


Re: David Axelrod is a liar ( telling disgusting lies about decriminalization)
Apparently, Axelrod just said that Democrats have to drop "the decriminalization card" because "Democrats need to face the fact that even many Democrats simply don't agree with decriminalization".
I still don't know what it is that they actually want and at this point I don't think they know what they want. They say the border patrol is akin to the gestapo but many say it's "bullshit" that democrats want open borders and to stop using that argument. So what exactly is it that you do want? Because as it stands, CPB is enforcing laws that Congress passed. And then Congress are the one's who bitch about it as if CPB has any control over what laws are passed. I mean... seriously?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-31-2019 12:14 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-31-2019 2:38 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 127 by Theodoric, posted 07-31-2019 3:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 146 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-01-2019 12:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 126 of 505 (859406)
07-31-2019 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2019 2:03 PM


Re: David Axelrod is a liar ( telling disgusting lies about decriminalization)
Because as it stands, CPB is enforcing laws that Congress passed. And then Congress are the one's who bitch about it as if CPB has any control over what laws are passed. I mean... seriously?
So, Congress passed a law that says the border patrol has to lock people up in cells with standing room only, no sanitation or medical care? Congress passed a law that says children of all ages should be locked up in cages with no sanitation or adult care?
I'll tell you what, let's just shoot them all, then everyone will be happy.[/sarcasm]

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2019 2:03 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2019 9:39 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 127 of 505 (859423)
07-31-2019 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2019 2:03 PM


Re: David Axelrod is a liar ( telling disgusting lies about decriminalization)
Because as it stands, CPB is enforcing laws that Congress passed. And then Congress are the one's who bitch about it as if CPB has any control over what laws are passed. I mean... seriously?
Now you know that that is not true.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 128 of 505 (859436)
07-31-2019 4:12 PM


Warren destroys Matthews talking point
Elizabeth Warren masterfully destroys Chris Matthews’ gotcha question
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by AZPaul3, posted 07-31-2019 6:01 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 130 by RAZD, posted 07-31-2019 6:02 PM Theodoric has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 129 of 505 (859452)
07-31-2019 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Theodoric
07-31-2019 4:12 PM


What is best is she is right. Costs are the killer.
Love that girl.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Theodoric, posted 07-31-2019 4:12 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 130 of 505 (859453)
07-31-2019 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Theodoric
07-31-2019 4:12 PM


GOTCHA
Elizabeth Warren masterfully destroys Chris Matthews’ gotcha question.
The question is not how much tax cost will change, but how much the total cost/s for healthcare will change
The Koch brother study showed that the total healthcare costs would go down with Bernie's "medicare for all" plan. There would be less out of pocket and co-pay costs and the current medicare costs are less than comparable insurance company costs (because no profit gouging).
quote:
Koch-backed study finds ‘Medicare for All’ would save U.S. trillions
An estimated cost of $32.6 trillion over 10 years is less than the US would spend over the next 10 years under the current system.
A single-payer Medicare for All system would reduce the amount the U.S. spends on health care by more than $2 trillion, a Koch brothers-funded study released Monday found.
Research by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University a libertarian think tank backed by the Koch brothers projected that the Medicare for All plan championed by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) would cost the government $32.6 trillion over 10 years. The highly critical report represented this figure as additional federal spending on top of what the government currently spends on health programs, and found that even doubling all federal individual and corporate income taxes would not cover the costs of Sanders’ Medicare for All plan.
The study did conclude, however, that Medicare for All would result in significant savings for the country because of lower prescription drug costs, saving $846 billion over the next decade. Streamlined administrative costs under the plan would save another $1.6 trillion, the researchers at the Mercatus Center found.
But when we talk about a Medicare for All system, it’s important to discuss the costs in the context of what the U.S. already spends on health care, given that the idea would be to replace the current system with a new Medicare for All program. As of 2016, national health expenditures which includes federal spending, state Medicaid programs, and private employer health care spending totaled $3.3 trillion per year, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.
Sanders’ proposed single-payer plan would be free at the point of service, and would not include any cost-sharing that is, no co-pays or premiums. Under his plan, taxes would replace those often high costs, which currently are shouldered by patients.
Research from March of this year found that the present system has left 15.5 percent of adults between 19 and 64 without health insurance, while more than a quarter of lower-income families are uninsured. Monday’s study concluded that not only would Medicare for All provide insurance for the millions of Americans currently without coverage, but it would also save the the United States $2.054 trillion over the next decade.
With "medicare for all" the government would also be in a position to negotiate drug costs with big pharmacy and bring costs more in line with what you see in Canada for the same medications:
quote:
'People are Dying': Bernie Sanders Heads to Canada With an Insulin Caravan
Sanders stood next to a mother who said she spends roughly US $1,500 a month for insulin for her son. But in Windsor, she paid US $1,000 for a six-month supply.
A vial of insulin which Type 1 diabetics use to regulate their blood sugar costs about US $340 in the United States -- roughly 10 times the Canadian price. An American Diabetes Association spokesperson previously told CTVNews.ca the average price of insulin has nearly tripled between 2002 and 2013.
Of course the Pharmacy companies are contributing to other candidates to prevent this from happening ...
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : added koch study

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Theodoric, posted 07-31-2019 4:12 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 131 of 505 (859457)
07-31-2019 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by RAZD
07-31-2019 6:02 PM


Re: GOTCHA
The Koch report was highly deceptive and highly misrepresented costs. Like Chris Matthews they do not care about total costs. The report and Matthews are just trying to get a Gotcha sound clip.
The amazing thing is that this was a study with a thumb on the scale. Even with the thumb on the scale it shows a saving of $2 trillion over 10 years. This is why the GOP and their funders are scared. They have to outright lie in order for their arguments to even make sense.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by RAZD, posted 07-31-2019 6:02 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 132 of 505 (859467)
07-31-2019 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Theodoric
07-31-2019 6:20 PM


Re: GOTCHA
Back when Newt demonized Hilary Clintons push for Universal Health Care he clearly stated that the issue was that the party that can implement universal health care will hold political control of the White House and both Houses of Congress for at least a half century. Of course the current crop of so called conservatives have also been too stupid to implement universal health care when they did control both houses of Congress.
More evidence of the Deplorables.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 505 (859485)
07-31-2019 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Tanypteryx
07-31-2019 2:38 PM


Re: David Axelrod is a liar ( telling disgusting lies about decriminalization)
So, Congress passed a law that says the border patrol has to lock people up in cells with standing room only, no sanitation or medical care? Congress passed a law that says children of all ages should be locked up in cages with no sanitation or adult care?
I think 90% of that controversy is embellished, but I don't want to get lost in the weeds in the minutia. I'm curious to know what precisely most Democrats want when it comes to the border. Everything I've seen seems to indicate an open border. Whenever that's mentioned, they say, no but offer no real provisions. So what is it that Democrats want when it comes to immigration policy?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-31-2019 2:38 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Theodoric, posted 07-31-2019 10:06 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 150 by RAZD, posted 08-01-2019 9:50 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 134 of 505 (859490)
07-31-2019 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2019 9:39 PM


Who is calling for open borders?
Everything I've seen seems to indicate an open border.
Please show one prominent Democrat that has advocated for an open border.
Edited by Theodoric, : new subtitle

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2019 9:39 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2019 10:59 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 135 of 505 (859495)
07-31-2019 10:34 PM


what's the difference between an open border and not enforcing immigration laws?
no democrat plans to enforce immigration laws.
i don't care. hispanics are helping keep the catholic church going. it's great. except for the MS-13 cold-blooded killers and illegal criminals who murder americans once they cross.
just saying.
Edited by messenjaH of oNe, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by AZPaul3, posted 07-31-2019 10:52 PM Trump won has replied

  
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