|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,423 Year: 3,680/9,624 Month: 551/974 Week: 164/276 Day: 4/34 Hour: 0/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination Campaign | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ooh-child Member (Idle past 365 days) Posts: 242 Joined:
|
As a Democrat, I wanted the comprehensive immigration reform package that the 'gang of eight' put together in 2013.
It was passed in the Senate overwhelmingly, then got strangled by John Boehner because the only priority at the time was oppose anything backed by Obama. Gang of Eight - Wikipedia(immigration) And make no mistake, the Republican leadership decided in January 2009 not to back anything Obama wanted to pass, even if they supported it in the past. McConnell said their first order of business was to make Obama a 'one term president'. Robert Draper Book: GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started Night Of Inauguration | HuffPost Latest News
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
|
what do you want when it comes to immigration? I think what the Democrats would like would be to work with Republican statesmen rather than Republican sado-racists hell bent on avoiding any kind of political compromise on the issue.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4411 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
|
So, Congress passed a law that says the border patrol has to lock people up in cells with standing room only, no sanitation or medical care? Congress passed a law that says children of all ages should be locked up in cages with no sanitation or adult care?
I think 90% of that controversy is embellished, but I don't want to get lost in the weeds in the minutia. Well, the minutia of humane treatment of humans is something I grew up thinking America stood for.
I'm curious to know what precisely most Democrats want when it comes to the border. Everything I've seen seems to indicate an open border. I have no idea what an open border is. I personally remember when there was an orderly flow of workers from Mexico back and forth across the border and they were welcomed. Some stayed and eventually became citizens and contributed to America's prosperity.
So what is it that Democrats want when it comes to immigration policy? I don't know. What is it that Trump wants? It appears to me that what we have right now is exactly what Trump wants. One side in this issue are assholes that are lying about the impact immigrants and refugees have on our country and they make me ashamed that they are humans. They have diminished the "American Dream" to the point it is unrecognizable. Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given. Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
|
No open borders in her plan. Show me where in her plan she calls for open borders.
You found one blog post saying it does. Show me where she calls for open borders. His conclusions are not supported by the data. You have yet to show where any Dem, prominent or not, has called for open borders. Do you know what that term means. Kevin Drum seems to be just concern trolling as he does not even show where there is a call for open borders. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
But it's Kevin Drum's (writing for Mother Jones) way of summarizing Elizabeth Warren's plan. It's not the Democrats' plan. The Democratic candidates have a number of different positions on immigration, so it doesn't really make sense to ask for the Democrats' immigration plan. I liked Drum's point by point summary of Warren's plan, but he seems to have been looking at something else when he wrote the summary paragraph that follows. He's right that there's nothing about improving law enforcement or a wall or E-Verify (don't know what that is) or smarter enforcement, but he's critiquing his own summary of Warren's plan, and we don't know how accurate that is yet. I wouldn't normally begin questioning a journalist's accuracy so early in an article, but I went to Warren's website to see what her immigration plan is (Warren's Plan for Immigration Reform). She says, "We need real reform that provides cost-effective security at our borders," and usually "cost-effective" is another way of saying "technology." So I'm already not getting any accuracy vibes from Drum, and then I see he also says, "No one will ever be deportedexcept, presumably, for serious felons, though Warren doesn’t even say that explicitly." It's true that Drum's summary of Warren's plan doesn't mention deportation, but why do I have a feeling that Warren does have something to say about deportation? In fact she mentions deportation in a couple places:
quote: Drum also says, "But I have to admit that it’s hard to see much daylight between Warren’s plan and de facto open borders. As near as I can tell, CBP will be retasked away from patrolling the border looking for illegal crossings;" He says this because he's misinterpreted this from Warren's plan:
quote: Drum somehow missed the context. Warren is saying that she wants to make border security separate from law enforcement. She wants to repurpose the effort CBP and ICE are currently putting into law enforcement into things like "screening cargo, identifying counterfeit goods, and preventing smuggling and trafficking." They'll still be patrolling the border. Next Drum goes on to recite some Republican talking points, which makes no sense if he's left of center (which he is), so maybe he was just having a bad day, or maybe somebody on the Warren campaign just really pissed him off, but anyway he recites these Republican talking points: "If border officers happen to apprehend someone, they’ll be released almost immediately; if they bother to show up for their court date, they’ll have a lawyer appointed for them; and employers will have no particular reason to fear giving them a job." I see no reason to give much credence to Drum's article. Anyone who wants to know Warren's immigration plan should go to the source: Warren's Plan for Immigration Reform And just to be very clear: no Democrat running for president is in favor of open borders. I am not endorsing any particular immigration plan, I'm not even very familiar with any of them (including Bill Weld's, the other Republican candidate for president) but I am definitely opposed to Trumpian border cruelty and to breaking our DACA promise. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
|
Great post. I was just in the middle of my own point by point take down of Drum's blog post. We were hitting most of the same points so I will not pile one.
I still have not gotten any response for my request for any Democrat calling for open borders. It seems Hyro and other rightwingers have a different definition of the term than the reality of the term. Maybe if he and people like Drum could explain what they mean by open borders we could explain why it isn't open borders. I follow progressive politics pretty close and I have some contacts in a few progressive organizations. I know of no one calling for open borders. No one. Since Hyro claims that is what the party stands for he would be able to at least point out one person that has advocated such a thing. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4411 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
|
I agree with Theodoric, a great post.
Once again we have a situation where the Trumpublicans hate what THEY SAY DEMOCRATS ARE DOING, while Democrats hate WHAT REPUBLICANS ARE ACTUALLY DOING!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
... Maybe if he and people like Drum could explain what they mean by open borders we could explain why it isn't open borders. ... Here's my stab at it: an open border is one you can walk across without any legal constraint and without any inspection -- like what we have between states. Now I grew up in Michigan and we would drive through Canada to reach the east coast relatives and to summer in Rhode Island. Stops at the borders were cursory and rarely were vehicles inspected. No longer, as now you need to have a passport to cross the border. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
That would be what I think of as an open border. I am still waiting for Hyro to show me anyone advocating for such a border with Canada and Mexico. He claims that is what all Dems want, but seemingly can't provide any actual examples.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
Now what we have in the "Eurozone" is akin to state to state borders for countries that are part of the EU, and regular border crossings to other countries.
Customs Duty, USA and Europe: Know the Rules when Crossing Borders. Now I can envisage a N.America union -- with Canada and the US ... (and Mexico ... or not), but the politics would be wicked and the GOP would likely revolt (they are pretty revolting already) -- and that would be an open border system, but I don't see anyone advocating that. A South America Union would be an interesting proposition ... if the US could keep from poking their regime change tendencies to cripple governments ... include central America and Mexico and it could become a political powerhouse. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
RAZD writes: A South America Union would be an interesting proposition ... if the US could keep from poking their regime change tendencies to cripple governments ... include central America and Mexico and it could become a political powerhouse. Not just a political powerhouse but also a major economic powerhouse with resources that dwarf most of today's economic powerhouses.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
And they have the advantage of a common language and history.
Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Think Texas, for starters.
There was a "white invasion" of lands that Mexicans, Native Americans, and (racially mixed) Spanish already lived in. This was not peaceful migration, but an outright military invasion. What is so wrong with an "open border", if it is peaceful migration? The truth is that the United States is a young nation, and it did not exist 250 years ago. And the whole of today's United States did not simply drop from the sky 230-245 years ago. It swallowed up non-white lands bit by bit. Texas was not in the United States till the mid 19th century. About 100 years before Nixon was Vice President. The South was just Virginia at the end of the 18th century. Just as El Paso was invaded in the middle of the 19th century, a white nationalist invaded the town today (a legal travel, from 10 miles away, in a town that was not part of the United States 200 years ago). This boy did not like Hispanics in the United States, so he attacked a Frontier town. But it is ONLY today seen as a crossing point from one country to the next. From the non-white country to the - "white country" - United States. It was Hispanic long before the white United States took it by force in the mid-19th century. This young country expanded and swallowed up non-white people, like in El Paso. It was violent. Now: What is wrong with "open borders"? What is wrong with peaceful "open borders", anyway? What is wrong with peaceful migration, free of (racist ignorance or other ignorance) ignorance and artificial borders?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
It is near Dallas.
But that was swallowed up by the white United States around the same time as El Paso. Whites were not planted there like Adam in the Garden of Eden. It is all artificial. And opposition to Open Borders is a feature of the ignorant. Democrats have their ignorant folks too. That does not make the opponents, of open borders, correct. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2323 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Most Democrats Want Border-Crossings Decriminalized, Poll Says | HuffPost Latest News
quote: I should point out that I skipped over a dozen paragraphs. See the link. There were seven more paragraphs after I stopped pasting.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024