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| Author | Topic: Did the Flood really happen? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Percy Member  Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: The horizontal strata are what you drew at the top. Right, here they are:
G ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > G F ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> F E ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> E D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> D C ------------------------------------------------------------------ CURRENT SEA LEVEL -----> C B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> B A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> A The mountain comes up beneath them and breaks the block of strata in two. Right, but the mountain is on the extreme western side of the island. Here's the original diagram. Snowdon is all the way in the west on the left:
So after that first diagram that shows the original horizontal strata we need a second diagram showing what happens to them as the granite mountain begins to uplift into the overlying strata. So here's a placeholder:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | | | | | | | | DIAGRAM OF GRANITE MOUNTAIN JUST BEGINNING TO UPLIFT AND | | SHOWING THE HORIZONTAL STRATA MOVING ASIDE SOMEWHERE | | | | | | | | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And then that would be followed by this as modified by your instructions:
/|_ _|\
/ / |__ __| \ \
/ / / / |__ __| \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / /\ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / G R A N I T E \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ \
G -------------- / / / / / / \ \ \ \ \ \ --------------------------- > G
F ----------------/ / / / / \ \ \ \ \------------------------------> F
E -----------------/ / / / \ \ \ \-------------------------------> E
D ------------------/ / / \ \ \--------------------------------> D
C -------------------/ / \ \--------- CURRENT SEA LEVEL -----> C
B --------------------/ \----------------------------------> B
A -------------------- ----------------------------------> A --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: Oh right, lakes and basins are all filling up with the same sediment at the same rate... At the same rate? Why-ever would you say that? The sedimentation rate for a lake will be highly dependent upon local conditions, such as the number, size, sediment loads and other suspended material of rivers flowing into it, and the type of debris swept into it by wind and rain.
...and will eventually all blend together into a single remarkably (I didn't say perfectly) homogeneous layer of the geological column without there being any evidence remaining of their shorelines, rim lines and so on. Lakes eventually fill with sediments and die. We would expect sediments to be distinctly different from the surrounding strata, and this turns out to be the case. For example, Fossil Butte stands prominently above the landscape because it was once a lake that filled with sediments. These sediments were harder then the surrounding limestone and so were eroded more slowly, gradually standing out more and more prominently as the surrounding landscape eroded away more quickly, as shown here:
Yep, a perfect candidate for continuation of the geological column. Not. Well, yes, precisely. Fossil Butte stands at the top of the local geologic column.
Yes of course sediment is continuing to be deposited on the sea floor. Which is not on the geological column. You continue to declare this without explaining how it could be so. Why do you reject that the geological column grows wherever deposition occurs? Why do you believe deposition can only build geologic columns on land?
I refer to the sea level line IN THAT DIAGRAM , which shows the broken off strata above it arranged from left to right instead of as they would have been laid down from bottom to top,... No one sees broken off strata in this diagram except you. Please tell us where they are? And explain where the pieces that broke off are?
...and the rest of those same strata arranged beneath the sea level line as we see them on that diagram. That is where they ended up and exist today and that is why I refer to that sea level line. The strata are continuous through the sea level line. Nothing happens to the strata at sea level. If you see some significance to current sea level, please explain what it is.
In the Flood, just as in the Grand Canyon, the water would have continued some depth above the horizontal strata as you drew them, and were probably receding as the mountain was rising,... This is just a story you've made up. There's virtually no evidence for it, and all the evidence is against.
...making it very much the same kind of situation as I've argued was the case in the Grand Canyon. You're in essence retelling the same fairy tale using different characters.
Sea level ENDED UP where it is and has stayed there ever since. The evidence of geology tells us that sea level has varied widely over time.
I've made consistent use of the actual facts. This should end the discussion. Beyond finally conceding the obvious, that sediment is being deposited today upon the sea floor, your message contained not a single fact. It was all fantasy supported by a diagram where you see things that aren't there. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: If you have a stack of thirty silver dollars and you put a dime on top of it -- or even three or four dimes -- are you continuing the same stack of coins? You mean like this?
And if you have a stack of thirty silver dollars on the table and you put a stack of three silver dollars on the floor are you continuing the same stack of coins? Of course not. They are two local stacks, one on the table and one on the floor. If you added another stack of coins somewhere else on the table or floor then that is a third local stack. And a stack of coins would follow Steno's law of superposition assuming we didn't play God. There's no such thing as a global numismatic time scale, so beyond that your analogy breaks down. But there is a global geologic time scale, and sediments deposited on the sea floor and that remain there, and simultaneously deposited sediments on the sea floor that are later uplifted onto continents, and simultaneously deposited sediments in a basin on an existing continent, are all the same time period of the global geologic timescale, the conceptual global geologic column. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Ah well I HAVE explained it. Over and over. Really I have. Sigh. You haven't *explained* anything. What you've done is asserted and declared. Have you forgotten your "I'm the one defining the reality" declaration. You're really not at all into explaining.
Let me ask this: If the whole world including the sea floor is the geological column how is it that the strata we find on the continents, from Precambrian to Holocene, are not also found on the sea floor? Hm? They are. Here, again for the third time, is an image of a sea core showing the K-T boundary when the dinosaurs went extinct at the end of the Cretaceous:
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Perhaps my view is unique to me then. Gee, ya think? So why did you falsely claim that only people HERE disagree with you in Message 1000:
Faith in Message 1000 writes: JonF writes:
Correction: Nobody HERE agrees with me, OR No OE/ToE believer agrees with me. Moving on:
I *have* said, after all, that I study these things for myself and come to my own conclusions. You don't know enough geology (or any science) to be forming your own conclusions. What you're doing is creating a false idol of religious myth clothed in misused geological terminology.
In many cases I find out that my conclusions agree with other YECs on a point, but sometimes I don't. Beyond the idea that there was a Flood, you have extremely little in common with other creationists.
Dredge and I don't agree on much, but then he's not a YEC. No, he's a YEC for all intents and purposes. He might think the Earth is old, but he follows the Biblical narrative for anything recent like the creation of man and the Flood and all that. This is from Dredge's Message 612:
Dredge in Message 612 of the Any Practical User for Universal Common Ancestor Thread writes: Of course Adam and Eve were real! I believe Noah's flood is an historical fact, but I also believe it wasn't global. Did all humanity descended from Noah's family? I think so. No modern animals evolved in last 4000 years - all animals were created, beginning billions of years ago. You and Dredge are peas in a pod, both full of ideas too dumb for anyone else to believe, even each other.
I don't think what I've said is silly... There you go making statements about yourself again. The quality of your ideas is judged not by you, because you are the easiest person for you to fool, incredibly easy in your case. You've developed no internal checks on your ideas, you've learned almost nothing practical about anything related to your ideas, so you just let 'em fly. This means that the ideas you release into the world are incredibly poorly thought out. You compound your error by almost never considering any criticism.
...and in most cases I would just repeat it, and of course there's no point in that. Correct, there is no point in repeating fallacies. Find some evidence, then develop some argumentation and explanatory framework to build around them. You will get nowhere just declaring to people that they should ignore the evidence before their very eyes and just listen to your crazy ideas.
Perhaps we should move on. After you've got all your objections said of course. I'd like to hear what happens to the horizontal strata to the left and right when the mountain uplifts into them so I can move forward with the sequence of diagrams. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Percy Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
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