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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1036 of 2370 (860046)
08-05-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Percy
08-05-2019 10:49 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Problem is the silver dollar analogy doesn't reflect the reality that on the ocean floor the accumulating sediments have nothing to do with the geological column as we know it, say, in the Grand Canyon/Grand Staircase area.
This notion of sea floor being raised onto continents or becoming continents is a really untenable idea, and pure theory since there is no indication whatever that such a thing has ever occurred or could occur.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 10:49 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by JonF, posted 08-05-2019 11:23 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1044 by RAZD, posted 08-05-2019 11:43 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1046 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 11:56 AM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1037 of 2370 (860047)
08-05-2019 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1005 by Faith
08-04-2019 9:41 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Faith writes:
Ah well I HAVE explained it. Over and over. Really I have. Sigh.
You haven't *explained* anything. What you've done is asserted and declared. Have you forgotten your "I'm the one defining the reality" declaration. You're really not at all into explaining.
Let me ask this: If the whole world including the sea floor is the geological column how is it that the strata we find on the continents, from Precambrian to Holocene, are not also found on the sea floor? Hm?
They are. Here, again for the third time, is an image of a sea core showing the K-T boundary when the dinosaurs went extinct at the end of the Cretaceous:
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1005 by Faith, posted 08-04-2019 9:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1039 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 11:31 AM Percy has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 249 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1038 of 2370 (860054)
08-05-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1036 by Faith
08-05-2019 10:53 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Problem is the silver dollar analogy doesn't reflect the reality that on the ocean floor the accumulating sediments have nothing to do with the geological column as we know it,
It's your analogy.
That's yet another repetition of one of your claims. Your claims are not evidence for your claims.
This notion of sea floor being raised onto continents or becoming continents is a really untenable idea, and pure theory since there is no indication whatever that such a thing has ever occurred or could occur.
That's a slightly new version of one of your claims. Your claims are not evidence for your claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 10:53 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1039 of 2370 (860056)
08-05-2019 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1037 by Percy
08-05-2019 10:56 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Where was the core taken? And at what depth is the iridium band? And does any of it bear any resemblance at all to Cretaceous deposits on th eland?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 10:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1049 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 12:19 PM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1040 of 2370 (860057)
08-05-2019 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1025 by Faith
08-05-2019 10:26 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Faith writes:
Perhaps my view is unique to me then.
Gee, ya think? So why did you falsely claim that only people HERE disagree with you in Message 1000:
Faith in Message 1000 writes:
JonF writes:
Correction: Nobody HERE agrees with me, OR No OE/ToE believer agrees with me.
Moving on:
I *have* said, after all, that I study these things for myself and come to my own conclusions.
You don't know enough geology (or any science) to be forming your own conclusions. What you're doing is creating a false idol of religious myth clothed in misused geological terminology.
In many cases I find out that my conclusions agree with other YECs on a point, but sometimes I don't.
Beyond the idea that there was a Flood, you have extremely little in common with other creationists.
Dredge and I don't agree on much, but then he's not a YEC.
No, he's a YEC for all intents and purposes. He might think the Earth is old, but he follows the Biblical narrative for anything recent like the creation of man and the Flood and all that. This is from Dredge's Message 612:
Dredge in Message 612 of the Any Practical User for Universal Common Ancestor Thread writes:
Of course Adam and Eve were real!
I believe Noah's flood is an historical fact, but I also believe it wasn't global.
Did all humanity descended from Noah's family? I think so.
No modern animals evolved in last 4000 years - all animals were created, beginning billions of years ago.
You and Dredge are peas in a pod, both full of ideas too dumb for anyone else to believe, even each other.
I don't think what I've said is silly...
There you go making statements about yourself again. The quality of your ideas is judged not by you, because you are the easiest person for you to fool, incredibly easy in your case. You've developed no internal checks on your ideas, you've learned almost nothing practical about anything related to your ideas, so you just let 'em fly. This means that the ideas you release into the world are incredibly poorly thought out. You compound your error by almost never considering any criticism.
...and in most cases I would just repeat it, and of course there's no point in that.
Correct, there is no point in repeating fallacies. Find some evidence, then develop some argumentation and explanatory framework to build around them. You will get nowhere just declaring to people that they should ignore the evidence before their very eyes and just listen to your crazy ideas.
Perhaps we should move on. After you've got all your objections said of course.
I'd like to hear what happens to the horizontal strata to the left and right when the mountain uplifts into them so I can move forward with the sequence of diagrams.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 10:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 11:35 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1043 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 11:39 AM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1041 of 2370 (860058)
08-05-2019 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1040 by Percy
08-05-2019 11:33 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Did I say ONLY people here disagree with me? That's unlikely since I know all believers in the ToE everywhere disagree with me.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 11:33 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1059 by JonF, posted 08-05-2019 1:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1042 of 2370 (860059)
08-05-2019 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1028 by Faith
08-05-2019 10:33 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
That definition of the Geological Column is, in my opinion, invented for the purpose of getting around the obvious fact that it's over and done with and that supports the Flood. ...
What you should have said:
My definition of the Geological Column is, in my opinion, invented for the purpose of getting around the obvious fact that it's not over and done with, in order to support my Flood model. ...
Although I can't see any rationale for excluding deposition at observed rates and locations from occurring, as that should not interfere with your model ... can you explain this?
... You have to incorporate all kinds of phenomena that are so utterly different from the Geological Column as we know it and as it is presented all over the internet ...
Again, what you should have said:
... I have to exclude all kinds of phenomena that are so utterly different from the Geological Column as I know it ...
How much area does your Geological Column cover? Can you show it on a map?
Doesn't it extend to the area of the Green River Formation (see Message 1017)?
... ...I'm trying to avoid an insulting word but no good alternative is coming to me. Duplicity, self-deception, etc.
The whole world is involved in self-deception but you? Wowsers.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1028 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 10:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1043 of 2370 (860061)
08-05-2019 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1040 by Percy
08-05-2019 11:33 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
I'd like to hear what happens to the horizontal strata to the left and right when the mountain uplifts into them so I can move forward with the sequence of diagrams.
There ARE no horizontal strata to the left and right. The mountain would uplift the whole block of strata, breaking it apart, which would create the two parts that fall to left and right. It's very clear on the diagram that the strata beneath the island/sea level line are part of the short tilted strata on the surface which are not in the position they were in when deposited. The right hand strata therefore became those that we see on the diagram. There are no others.
I've been dealing with a bunch of distractions but I still plan to do my own diagrams on paper and hope to figure out how to scan and post them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 11:33 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1060 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 1:44 PM Faith has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1486 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1044 of 2370 (860063)
08-05-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1036 by Faith
08-05-2019 10:53 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Problem is the silver dollar analogy doesn't reflect the reality that on the ocean floor the accumulating sediments have nothing to do with the geological column as we know it, say, in the Grand Canyon/Grand Staircase area.
What about the Green River Formation -- Varves, Fossils, Time and Geological Columns?
This notion of sea floor being raised onto continents or becoming continents is a really untenable idea, and pure theory since there is no indication whatever that such a thing has ever occurred or could occur.
We can measure the uplift in many places, from the Grand Canyon to Mt Everest, and we find that the rate of uplift is consistent with the rise of mountains. Plate Tectonics explains this process in great detail, as well as earthquakes and volcanoes, things like the Hawaiian Islands and the ages of the different islands.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 10:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1047 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 12:08 PM RAZD has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1045 of 2370 (860064)
08-05-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1028 by Faith
08-05-2019 10:33 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Faith writes:
That definition of the Geological Column is, in my opinion, invented for the purpose of getting around the obvious fact that it's over and done with and that supports the Flood.
I thought you just said there's no point to repetition. Until you find some reason for believing this crazy idea that the geologic column is "over and done with" you should stop saying it. The geologic time scale continues to grow at the rate of one second per second, and most local columns around the globe are undergoing change. Most on land are eroding (only the upper elevations of your state, of course, which overall is a region of net deposition), while most beneath the oceans are experiencing deposition.
You have to incorporate all kinds of phenomena that are so utterly different from the Geological Column as we know it and as it is presented all over the internet and on Google image,...
This doesn't even make sense, but if you think you've found some images showing that the geologic column is inconsistent with geological processes then please present them, by all means. Why didn't you present them now? Is copy/pasting and typing [img] that hard?
...that even you all should have to see the ...I'm trying to avoid an insulting word but no good alternative is coming to me. Duplicity, self-deception, etc.
Self-deception is an excellent word. If you think we're deceiving ourselves then begin presenting the evidence that shows it. That's evidence you need, not declarations of your infallibility or repetitions of the same rubbish.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1028 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 10:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 1046 of 2370 (860068)
08-05-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1036 by Faith
08-05-2019 10:53 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Faith writes:
Problem is the silver dollar analogy doesn't reflect the reality that on the ocean floor the accumulating sediments have nothing to do with the geological column as we know it, say, in the Grand Canyon/Grand Staircase area.
You're noting a reality, not a problem. Why would sediments deposited in the Grand Canyon region have anything to do with those deposited in the UK or the South China Sea or Australia or the North Atlantic or South Africa? In other words, why would sediments deposited in widely separated locations have anything to do with each other? Surely you're not still clinging to the silly belief that the same stack of sedimentary layers were deposited worldwide.
This notion of sea floor being raised onto continents or becoming continents is a really untenable idea, and pure theory since there is no indication whatever that such a thing has ever occurred or could occur.
And yet the continents are mostly marine strata. These strata do not look like marine detritus washed up onto land because that's not what they are. They look like former sea floor, because that is what they are.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 10:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1048 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 12:19 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1047 of 2370 (860072)
08-05-2019 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1044 by RAZD
08-05-2019 11:43 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Uplift, sure, and the raising of mountains, sure, but not sea floor. It has appeared to me from many cross sections that all the tectonic processes began after all the strata were laid down, also earthquakes which of course are the result of tectonic forces, and volcanoes as well. Evidence is that it's the whole stack that is affected all at once and in the same way, not separate layers independently of one another. Magma can be seen to rise all the way from beneath the Precambrian rocks to the top of a given sedimentary stack, etc.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1044 by RAZD, posted 08-05-2019 11:43 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1051 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2019 12:30 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1063 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 2:05 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1065 by RAZD, posted 08-05-2019 2:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1244 by RAZD, posted 08-14-2019 12:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1048 of 2370 (860073)
08-05-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Percy
08-05-2019 11:56 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
You're noting a reality, not a problem. Why would sediments deposited in the Grand Canyon region have anything to do with those deposited in the UK or the South China Sea or Australia or the North Atlantic or South Africa? In other words, why would sediments deposited in widely separated locations have anything to do with each other? Surely you're not still clinging to the silly belief that the same stack of sedimentary layers were deposited worldwide.
What a strange response. Doesn't the entire geological column/time scale span the entire Earth? Aren't there strata everywhere that indicate the time periods from Precambrian to Holocene, however incompletely in some cases? Pretty clear to me that the strata in the UK are the same as those in Tennessee and in the Grand Canyon, Grand Staircase area, in that they were all deposited completely, before the tectonic upheaval occurred that distorted them in their various ways.
I'm sure the marine strata do look like "former sea floor" but that's only because they contain fossils from the sea floor. There IS another explanation for this.
This notion of sea floor being raised onto continents or beco
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 11:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1052 by PaulK, posted 08-05-2019 12:41 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1064 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 2:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 1049 of 2370 (860074)
08-05-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1039 by Faith
08-05-2019 11:31 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Faith writes:
Where was the core taken?
The Gulf of Mexico. The image can be found at A Visit to the Gulf Core Repository. The main website is at IODP (International Discovery Ocean Program) Core Repositories.
And at what depth is the iridium band?
I don't know.
And does any of it bear any resemblance at all to Cretaceous deposits on the land?
It would be very unlikely to closely resemble Cretaceous deposits anywhere else, whether marine or terrestrial. Once you get far enough away from one location the conditions become different, and so the sediments deposited become different, though certainly you can count on the K-T boundary standing out in some way in all cores that span that point in time.
Another factor is whether that part of the Gulf of Mexico was ever above sea level, i.e., did it ever experience Walther's Law? Or was it always marine? If it was always marine and far from shore then it would consist primarily of layers of pelagic ooze and perhaps of limestone if conditions permitted. If it helps, the oldest part of the core is at the top of the image, the youngest at the bottom.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1039 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1050 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 12:25 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1050 of 2370 (860075)
08-05-2019 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by Percy
08-05-2019 12:19 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Gulf of Mexico is not the same as the oceans, it shows many signs of having been formed after all the strata were laid down, and that would include the strata of the Cretaceous with its iridium layer. I see you asked some of these questions I've just answered. Yes it was part of the continent and not sea floor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 12:19 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1061 by JonF, posted 08-05-2019 1:51 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1066 by Percy, posted 08-05-2019 2:37 PM Faith has replied

  
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