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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 423 of 430 (859796)
08-03-2019 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Thugpreacha
08-03-2019 2:26 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
So is Boyd lying?

A self-serving anecdote? I wouldn't put it past him.

But he is a religionist and will see what he wants to see regardless of the reality.

quote:
I had believed in Satan and demons since my conversion fourteen years earlier ...

So he was already predisposed to irrational thinking. Typical.

I note that in this writeup there is no further information on the girl. What was her diagnosis?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-03-2019 2:26 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6485
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 424 of 430 (859807)
08-03-2019 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by Thugpreacha
08-03-2019 2:26 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Anecdotes are evidence of nothing

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-03-2019 2:26 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-03-2019 12:31 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12676
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 425 of 430 (859814)
08-03-2019 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by Theodoric
08-03-2019 10:46 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
I'll ask you the same thing I asked in the other thread when an opponent demanded evidence. How precisely would one go about gathering evidence for God?

Believers insist that existence itself is proof in that if something...anything exists it exists necessarily.

But I think it really is a faith decision. Without evidence. I think it was set up(designed) to be that way. You yourself said that if God(as we describe Him) really existed and you met Him face to face you would (attempt) to punch Him in the mouth for the atrocities that you yourselves deem that He has made.

But getting back to two questions.
1) Evidence. How precisely would one go about obtaining evidence for God?
2) Alternative View. A universe without God. (as defined by humans on this dust speck at this moment) How can we know and what is our responsibility moving forward? One wag once said that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. Comments?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by Theodoric, posted 08-03-2019 10:46 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31162
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 426 of 430 (859817)
08-03-2019 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Thugpreacha
08-03-2019 12:31 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

1) Evidence. How precisely would one go about obtaining evidence for God?

No one, particularly believers, has ever provided any idea of how it might even be possible to find evidence of God.

Question two has absolutely no meaning and so is impossible to answer in any way that does have meaning.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-03-2019 12:31 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12676
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 427 of 430 (859820)
08-03-2019 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by jar
08-03-2019 12:58 PM


Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
jar writes:

Question two has absolutely no meaning and so is impossible to answer in any way that does have meaning.

Oh get over yourself! Even I can answer this question using what you have quoted before.

Q: 2) Alternative View. A universe without God. (as defined by humans on this dust speck at this moment) How can we know and what is our responsibility moving forward? One wag once said that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. Comments?

A: Even if all the stories about Jesus are only tales told round the campfire the message is still of value. (...) When you pray, the best you can hope for is advice on what YOU need to do.

See? Was that so difficult? Now one further question. Is God even necessary? I await the response from you, a Christian. Is the wag right? Or do we simply need to go and feed the hungry clothe the naked and comfort the sorrowful as any good secular humanists would do?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 12:58 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by ringo, posted 08-03-2019 1:26 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 429 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 2:38 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 428 of 430 (859827)
08-03-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Thugpreacha
08-03-2019 1:07 PM


Re: Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
Phat writes:

One wag once said that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him. Comments?


God may have been "necessary" as an early hypothesis to explain thunder and lightning, much as phlogiston was an early hypothesis to explain combustion. But when better hypotheses are found, the old ones diminish in importance.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-03-2019 1:07 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31162
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 429 of 430 (859841)
08-03-2019 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Thugpreacha
08-03-2019 1:07 PM


Re: Even I Can Answer Questions That You Claim Are Meaningless
Phat writes:

Now one further question. Is God even necessary?

Answered in Message 729 but quoted here to make it easy for you.

jar in another thread writes:

Phat, remember that not only does the atheist population in general find they can behave morally without God, there are quite a few religions that do fine without God. Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism are three that I know I've discussed with you in the past.

So once again, the evidence shows that God is not necessary.

But the evidence goes even further and shows that in general over the recorded history it has been beliefs and allegiance to one God over some other God that has been the source of immoral behavior.

Beliefs are very powerful though and it is conceivable that for some people the belief that there is so vengeful critter that will punish them should they misbehave could lead to that individual behaving in a manner suitable for polite company. But again the evidence shows it can also and unfortunately far more often lead to great immorality, genocide, repression and evil.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-03-2019 1:07 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 430 of 430 (860275)
08-06-2019 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Thugpreacha
08-03-2019 2:26 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Thugpreacha writes:

To me that's an error in thinking. We are not our own spirituality. One simply does not use spirituality to grant themselves anything.

If you believe spirituality comes from God - of course.
But then the question remains - how do we compare if Stile's spirituality from God or Stile's spirituality from other sources is 'better?'

I propose that it's by judging the power in the sensing of spiritual ideas that one feels: happiness, comfort, peace, solace...
If you'd like to provide another method, feel free to make a suggestion.

So is Boyd lying?

I don't think so.
Sounds to me like Boyd has very little experience with trauma-victims and/or the resulting mental states it can cause and/or mental illness even.
I don't have a lot of experience myself - but even from my little experience, I don't find the situation suggesting demons or Gods in any way.

Just trauma, victims, coping mental states and/or mental illness.

I realize that anecdotal stories and testimonies do not truth make, but I have heard enough of these anecdotes to consider them.

Have you researched trauma, victims, coping mental states and/or mental illness at all?

I'm not attempting to make the point that it's one or the other.
My point is that one can just as easily explain it as the other - and if you're focusing on one over the other - it's telling about your bias more than anything else.


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