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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1147 of 2370 (860366)
08-07-2019 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1145 by Percy
08-07-2019 8:58 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
If you understood geologic diagrams you would understand that this one shows three tectonic sequences:
NONSENSE, THAT IS HISTORICAL GEOLOGY, IT IS NOT MY PARADIGM. There are three AREAS of disturbance, there is no particular reason to assign them to different events, one major tectonic event could account for them all.
And I still think YOU don't understand this diagram. I don't think you understand that it was originally those straight horizontal strata ON TOP OF THE ISLAND, that tilted just as you illustrated it, though you don't seem to have any idea why, and became the short tilted strata along the top of the island from left to right with the rest of their lengths beneath the island. That's a lot of disturbance just to get repositioned, it's really hard to fit three separate tectonic events into that picture, certainly at least unnecessary.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1145 by Percy, posted 08-07-2019 8:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1194 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 2:45 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1155 of 2370 (860430)
08-07-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1154 by Percy
08-07-2019 2:03 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
What is there to cause the sea floor uplift? I don't see any possible cause.
But we know that tectonic force can push the land up into mountains.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1154 by Percy, posted 08-07-2019 2:03 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1156 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2019 3:46 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1195 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 2:53 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1157 of 2370 (860432)
08-07-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1154 by Percy
08-07-2019 2:03 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
I've shown several times now how great amounts of deposition occurred after uplift in the UK cross section.
That makes absolutely no sense.
And obviously the Grand Canyon Supergroup was tilted and eroded before the overlying strata were deposited.
There's nothing obvious about it, strata don't deposit neatly over a mounded surface, the idea is preposterous, it is far more defensible that the tilting of the Supergroup pushed up the stack of strata, causing that mound over it.
Ba da boom.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1154 by Percy, posted 08-07-2019 2:03 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1159 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2019 3:56 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1202 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 7:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1158 of 2370 (860437)
08-07-2019 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1156 by PaulK
08-07-2019 3:46 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
I have no problem with the idea that land can sink, I think that's what happened in the Gulf of Mexico, and no I will not argue this further here so if any comments are made to this, take them to the new thread. Anyway, sinking isn't all that unlikely, raising the sea floor is. It is not like the land. Tectonic pressure can create twisted pretzels of strata, can can make accordion type mountains like the Appalachians besides pushing the land in a way that causes mountains to rise straight up. It could even cause the sinking of the land to form the landlocked seas and lakes of the sort you mention.
There really is no force that could raise the sea floor.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1156 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2019 3:46 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1160 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2019 4:02 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1162 by JonF, posted 08-07-2019 4:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1161 of 2370 (860448)
08-07-2019 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1160 by PaulK
08-07-2019 4:02 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
You were talking about "large areas of sea floor that once were land" by which you meant the floors of the various bodies of water you mentioned. That's not about sea floor rising, that's about land area sinking to become bodies of water.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1160 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2019 4:02 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1163 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2019 4:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1164 of 2370 (860457)
08-07-2019 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1162 by JonF
08-07-2019 4:09 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
They push around the plates and may raise a mountain of sorts ON the ocean floor, while also being the cause of the mountains on the land and very likely the sinking that forms inland bodies of water, but I don't see any way they are going to lift the sea floor to land level.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1162 by JonF, posted 08-07-2019 4:09 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1165 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2019 4:45 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1166 by JonF, posted 08-07-2019 5:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1167 of 2370 (860473)
08-07-2019 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1165 by PaulK
08-07-2019 4:45 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
We can SEE, we can UNDERSTAND, how tectonic forces alter the land, push up mountains, twist the strata and so on. The physics involved is really very clear. You just keep asserting that there's no reason why the sea floor couldn't rise to land level but that's no argument. You have no mechanism in mind for how it could happen. What pushes it up? A mountain is not the sea floor rising, it's just a mountain on the sea floor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1165 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2019 4:45 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1168 by JonF, posted 08-07-2019 6:47 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1173 by PaulK, posted 08-08-2019 12:14 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1169 of 2370 (860481)
08-07-2019 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1145 by Percy
08-07-2019 8:58 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
I've already given enough description in Message 1134 for you to draw the diagram. It's all there but your acceptance of the standard Geological interpretation prevents you from seeing it:
...which would not have taken hundreds of millions of years.
Sure, falling can happen rapidly. Where do you see evidence of anything having fallen in that diagram.
I see that evidence in the fact that the strata in the diagram are not in the same position they would have been in when originally deposited. All the attempts to find a way to depict what I think happened have to do with trying to explain how they got from their original position to the position shown on the cross section. Trying to be clearer: They were originally horizontal strata stacked vertically; they ended up on their side with the formerly vertical time periods spread out horizontally across the island and the rest of their lengths that were originally horizontal, now beneath the island, where they are so distorted it's hard to tell what their orientation is, but it's clear that they come down vertically from the short parts of them, then get turned toward the East.
In the meantime, here's the diagram again with the three areas of tectonism/erosion/deposition circled. How does the Flood account for this:
Faith writes:
I interpret that diagram to show one tectonic disturbance that turned the original horizontal strata (trying to be clearer: the strata are horizonjtal but the stack of strata is vertical with the Cambrian on the bottom and the Holocene on the top) on their side and removed them to their current location with part above the sea level line and the rest beneath it.
If you understood geologic diagrams you would understand that this one shows three tectonic sequences:
I see how Geology arrives at that if it is assumed it all occurred in the strata in their current position as depicted on the cross section, but this doesn't take into account that those strata are not in the position in which they were originally deposited and an explanation is needed for that fact, and that raises the question of exactly when those identified unconformities occurred.
You give the Old Earth interpretation,...
No, I follow the evidence, which shows three tectonic sequences, and I provided them for you.
But your evidence assumes the Old Earth point of view, because it is just as possible to interpret all three as having occurred at the same time. HOWEVER, the main problem here is that the strata have obviously changed their position since their original deposition, which I've explained as their having "fallen" from that original, at least tilted from it, which I further tried to explain by postulating that the mountain probably rose beneath the original block of horixontal strata, broke it and caused the two broken of parts to tilt in opposite directions, the right part becoming what we see on the cross section.
...which only shows that you don't get what I'm trying to describe for you to illustrate it,...
Please continue describing your vision. I will draw what you describe. I just have to make sense of it first.
I've been doing my best and have done it again above.
...about how the originally horizontal strata had to fall into their current position,...
Fall into what? What created the empty space into which they fell? Removing the horizontal strata from the diagram does create empty space, but you must describe where the horizontal strata went. They can't just disappear into thin air. It is this that I'm waiting for you to describe.
I don't understand how it could have happened either given the scarcity of information on the cross section, I conclude that they fell into their current position from the fact that they are IN a position they couldn't have been in when oridinally laid down. And your depiction of the change in orientation when the original straight horizontal strata are tilted so that the order of their time periods is now spread from right to left across the island is exactly what I had in mind. So I was postulating that what caused the strata to tilt could have been the rising of the mountain beneath it. You seem to have no explanation whatever but an explanation is definitely needed. How did the strata as we see them on the cross section get turned on their side?
Since the strata beneath the island are simply part of the strata on top of the island it is clear that the whole block of strata, both the short ends of it on the island AND the distorted strata beneath the island, were originally that straight flat block of strata you've been drawing at the top of those posts about it. Based on edge's information you are circling areas in that block of strata beneath the island that are unconformities, and the assumption seems to be that they occurred while the block of strata were in the position they are in on the cross section. But if that whole block was originally the nice straight horixontal block you keep prensting as the first phase before the tilting, this raises the question whether those disturbances now identified as unconformities perhaps occurred at the same time in one tectonic event as the strata "fell" into their current position from their previous form as straight horizontal strata.
I hope that is clear but I can't predict. I'm doing my best to be clear. You have to account for the change in position from their original deposition as you've drawn it on many posts to their current disturbed condition beneath the island with their top parts ON the island all tilted in one direction etc etc etc.
Just a guess: are you perhaps thinking of a sliding or sloughing off of strata from the slopes of Snowdon?
No, I've been postulating that Snowdon pushed up under the original horizontal strata and broke them in two, each side tilting and falling, on to the left and one to the right, the right side forming the whole situation we see on the cross section now. But I see that some of the strata seem to have draped themselves over Snowdon so something like what you suggest may be part of the picture.
...which would not have taken hundreds of millions of years.
Sure, falling can happen rapidly. Where do you see evidence of anything having fallen in that diagram.
In the fact that the strata as now presented on the diagram are not in the position they would have been in when originally deposited. They are now on their side, the time periods running from West to East rather than stacked up vertically one on top of another.
In the meantime, here's the diagram again with the three areas of tectonism/erosion/deposition circled. How does the Flood account for this:
The Flood has nothing to do with this. It appears that a tectonic event caused the strata to change from their original horizontal position to this completely different position on their side.












The three circled areas from left to right are shown in these closeups:






How does the Flood explain this?
Again these unconformities would have been caused tectonically after the strata were laid down, and since it appears that something changed their position from their original horizontal position to this current position on their side, with the part beneath the island being pushed from west to east, clearly some kind of strong tectonic force was involved that could have caused those unconformities during the transition from their original position to their current position.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1145 by Percy, posted 08-07-2019 8:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1170 by JonF, posted 08-07-2019 6:53 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1209 by Percy, posted 08-09-2019 6:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1179 of 2370 (860518)
08-08-2019 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1178 by Percy
08-08-2019 8:27 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Why don't your stop your misrepresentations? Try honesty for a change.
Why don't you stop falsely accusing me?
I have no idea what you mean about my making myself the topic. I suspect it's the result of people attacking me personally for my arguments so I respond in kind.
I believe I HAVE shown evidence enough to persuade others at least that there is something to the Flood claims, but it hasn't happened and I've stopped caring, long long ago. All I can do is continue to see how the same evidence shows up elsewhere, as that I found in the Grand Canyon area does seem to be present in the UK cross section.
I just posted on the subject of the Gulf on the designated thread in an attempt to be clearer about how I arrived at my view of it. Perhaps that will clarify.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1178 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 8:27 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1203 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 8:37 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1180 of 2370 (860519)
08-08-2019 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1175 by Percy
08-08-2019 7:47 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
The Bible is the source of my thinking on this subject so it IS a scientific text on this subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1175 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 7:47 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1183 by JonF, posted 08-08-2019 11:53 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1191 by jar, posted 08-08-2019 2:03 PM Faith has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1181 of 2370 (860520)
08-08-2019 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1173 by PaulK
08-08-2019 12:14 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
The tectonic pressure on the land is lateral. How would such lateral pressure lift the sea floor?

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 Message 1173 by PaulK, posted 08-08-2019 12:14 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1185 of 2370 (860528)
08-08-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1184 by Percy
08-08-2019 12:13 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
I just finished Message 1169 where I first started it so that's next on the agenda and I'll have to come back to this post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1184 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 12:13 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1186 of 2370 (860530)
08-08-2019 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1184 by Percy
08-08-2019 12:13 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Interesting that you compare the UK diagram to the Grand Canyon because I do too with some differences. I see the tilting of the Supergroup that raised the strata that broke the upper strata that formed the Grand Canyon itself, as having occurred at the same time as the rising of Snowdon that broke the strata there, that tilted the strata on right and left, that caused the right side to fall into their current position as shown on the cross section, of the strata on their side with the broken-off tops arranged along the surface of the island and the rest beneath it.
In both cases tectonic forces beneath the strata caused basement rock to rise and break the strata above. And I think this happened at the same time as the Flood waters were receding, cutting the Grand Canyon itself as well as the cliffs of the Grand Staircase, AND tilting the strata of the UK so that they ended up on their side, part above the island and part below, as we see them on the cross section.
The pushing up of the Supergroup caused the rising of the strata up over the mound it created, could be compared to some extent with what happened in the UK, where the tilted strata fell into their current position, their tops having been broken off by the pushing up of Snowdon.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1184 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 12:13 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1210 by Percy, posted 08-09-2019 6:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1189 of 2370 (860543)
08-08-2019 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1188 by Percy
08-08-2019 12:50 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
...
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1188 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 12:50 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1196 of 2370 (860577)
08-08-2019 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1194 by Percy
08-08-2019 2:45 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
..and became the short tilted strata along the top of the island from left to right with the rest of their lengths beneath the island.
You really have to work on your terminology. All of the strata except the portions at the very surface are beneath the island.
Yes. Isn't that what I just said?
What you're actually thinking of is sea level, and you're still wrong about sea level. Sea level is not some line of demarcation with short tilted strata above and long draping strata below (I'm using your terminology). Sea level is irrelevant, and the strata are continuous from the surface on down into the geologic depths to bedrock.
I used the word "draping" to describe the strata draped over the mountain, not the strata below.
And in this context sea level is indeed irrelevant and I'm not interested in sea level, although it's the bottom of the island as William Smith drew it so I don't see how there's any other proper designation for it.
That's a lot of disturbance just to get repositioned,...
I won't even try to guess what this means. Please explain.
The disturbance caused by the tilting of the strata and falling down now horizontally arranged across the island AND beneath the island, which had to happen because THEY ARE NOT IN THE POSITION THEY HAD TO BE IN WHEN DEPOSITED. Since I've been knocking myself out to get this across to you and you still haven't the smidgen of a clue I don't see any point in continuing to try. I don't care if this is my own fault, I'm out of alternatives and I don't see any reason to continue to try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 2:45 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1217 by Percy, posted 08-11-2019 3:27 PM Faith has replied

  
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