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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2034 of 3207 (860590)
08-08-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2021 by Stile
08-08-2019 1:39 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
Are you saying no one has ever looked for God before and found nothing?
I'm saying that you have to look. You said, "Things that only exist in our imagination will never exist in reality: all their ends will be dead." I'm asking how you can know they don't exist in reality unless you look? How can you know that "all" of the ends will be dead before you look at all of the ends?

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2021 by Stile, posted 08-08-2019 1:39 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2037 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 10:02 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2035 of 3207 (860592)
08-08-2019 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2022 by Phat
08-08-2019 2:35 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Phat writes:
You have to want/need Him.
Why? I can find mosquitoes without wanting them or needing them.
Phat writes:
In times such as these, life often no longer makes sense. it becomes irrational. Trust itself becomes irrational. Many people turn to God. Whether God actually exists or whether God is a panacea in their mind, they equate belief in God with an unwaverable trust---out of desperation.
You seem to be arguing against yourself.
Phat writes:
The idea that everyone has an equal chance(opportunity) at finding God is not scriptural.
You picked a fine time to start paying attention to the scriptures. Why don't you pay attention to what Jesus said?

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2022 by Phat, posted 08-08-2019 2:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2038 of 3207 (860638)
08-09-2019 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 2036 by Stile
08-09-2019 10:01 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
Why do we not go down that rabbit-hole?
Because it's irrational - there's no link from the imagination to reality that suggests such a thing would actually be viable in the first place.
Nope. We don't go down the rabbit-hole of "you only thought you did - you didn't actually do it" because it's a completely separate issue from what we've been discussing.
We are accepting that I can actually bake a cake. We are accepting that we have searched for God. Unless we accept that we do have a connection to reality, there is nothing to discuss.
But of course we don't know whether there is a link from imagination to reality until we look for one. We can not say the idea is irrational before we look. And we can not say that we "know" there is no link when there are still lots of places to look.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2036 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 10:01 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2040 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 11:49 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2039 of 3207 (860639)
08-09-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 2037 by Stile
08-09-2019 10:02 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
We have looked - scoured all of our available information.
No we haven't. Dark matter.
Stile writes:
You're asking me to look outside of our available information....
Nope. Dark matter.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2037 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 10:02 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2041 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 11:52 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2042 of 3207 (860644)
08-09-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2040 by Stile
08-09-2019 11:49 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
We have looked - scoured all our available information.
Until you look behind the dark matter, that statement is false.
Stile writes:
ringo writes:
We can not say the idea is irrational before we look.
Sure we can.
If there's no rational link from imagination to reality that gives us a reason to look - then looking is irrational.
How can you know a priori that there's no reason to look?

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2040 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 11:49 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2047 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 8:28 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2043 of 3207 (860645)
08-09-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2041 by Stile
08-09-2019 11:52 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
What is the reason to think we will find God behind dark matter?
You have it backwards. What is the reason to think we won't?
There was no reason to think we would never find a Northwest Passage until we had explored every possibility. "We never found it in the past," was not an excuse to stop looking.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2041 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 11:52 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2048 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 8:35 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2050 of 3207 (860822)
08-12-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2047 by Stile
08-12-2019 8:28 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
ringo writes:
How can you know a priori that there's no reason to look?
When there's no reason.
Please, if you have one - just provide it.
I have: because you can't find anything if you don't look.
Stile writes:
All it has to do is have a rational link from the imagination of God to the possible reality of God.
How do you know there is no link unless you look for one?

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2047 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 8:28 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2052 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:00 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2051 of 3207 (860823)
08-12-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2048 by Stile
08-12-2019 8:35 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
There are only irrational reasons, with no connection to reality, to think that God could exist behind dark matter.
That's irrational. We can't know unless we look.
Stile writes:
Every time in the past - when there have only been irrational reasons to think God could exist somewhere - and we end up being able to check that place - no evidence for God is ever found. For thousands of years.
Northwest Passage.
Stile writes:
There is no evidence to suggest that God even exists in the first place at all let alone "only behind dark matter."
There's never any evidence until we look.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2048 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 8:35 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2053 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2054 of 3207 (860828)
08-12-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2052 by Stile
08-12-2019 12:00 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
Because we can't find out if you're-actually-baking-cakes-or-not if don't look behind dark matter.
Don't be silly. We don't need to look behind the dark matter for what we've already found.
Stile writes:
We have looked everywhere within our currently available information.
No, we know that a place exists, behind the dark matter, where we currently have no ability to look. Just like they had no ability to cross the ice barriers to look for the Northwest Passage.
As long as we know there is a place where we haven't looked, we can not claim to know what we'd find if we could look.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2052 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:00 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2056 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2055 of 3207 (860829)
08-12-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2053 by Stile
08-12-2019 12:02 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
What sort of Gods do we know to exist before searching for God behind dark matter?
We don't have to know that something exists before we look for it.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2053 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:02 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2057 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2058 of 3207 (860832)
08-12-2019 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2056 by Stile
08-12-2019 12:16 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
You're the one who said "the reason for looking is that we haven't checked yet."
How does this also not apply to knowing we won't find out that ringo actually can't bake cakes when we look behind dark matter?
We know that ringo can bake cakes. We can't un-know that by looking behind the dark matter.
Stile writes:
Can you read the future?
I can predict that in the future, Paris will have existed in the past.
Stile writes:
"As long as we know there is a place where we could identify that ringo actually cannot bake cakes, we cannot claim ringo knows how to bake cakes."
Nonsense. The claim is not that ringo can bake cakes everywhere. It's that he can bake cakes somewhere.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2056 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:16 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2060 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2059 of 3207 (860833)
08-12-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2057 by Stile
08-12-2019 12:17 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
ringo writes:
We don't have to know that something exists before we look for it.
Of course not.
But we do in order to call it rational.
You yourself said that rational means logical. There is nothing in the logic that requires something to exist before we look for it. Looking for something to find out if it exists is rational.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2057 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:17 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2062 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2061 of 3207 (860836)
08-12-2019 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2060 by Stile
08-12-2019 12:31 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
Just like (many, many) years ago we knew the earth was flat. Are you saying that new information wasn't able to let us un-know that?
That's why I reserve the word "know' for something that can be demonstrated. The flatness of the earth can not be demonstrated. Baking a cake can.
Stile writes:
The claim is not that God doesn't exist everywhere. It's that He doesn't exist somewhere (all of our available information.)
The claim is that God doesn't exist anywhere.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2060 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:31 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2063 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:40 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2064 of 3207 (860839)
08-12-2019 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2062 by Stile
08-12-2019 12:38 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
And what you're talking about is an irrational search as far as that framework is concerned.
You keep saying that but you haven't pointed out the errors in logic.
Stile writes:
Is it rational to look for "something-that-tells-us-that-ringo-actually-cannot-bake-cakes, and-only-currently-thinks-he-can?"
As I said, I can demonstrate that I can bake a cake - to you or to anybody else who is interested. There can be no question of it being a figment of my imagination. It's objective.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2062 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:38 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2066 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 1:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2065 of 3207 (860840)
08-12-2019 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2063 by Stile
08-12-2019 12:40 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:
But you are unable to demonstrate that we won't find out that you actually cannot bake cakes when we check behind dark matter.
What has been demonstrated can not be un-demonstrated. Your conspiracy theory will not work.
Stile writes:
ringo writes:
The claim is that God doesn't exist anywhere.
No it isn't.
It's a tentative claim that I know God doesn't exist according to the current information available to us.
You're being dishonest. You've said, "I know that God does not exist," hundreds of times in this thread. You only put the qualifiers in when somebody scores on your goal.
Stile writes:
Did you forget what knowledge actually is?
Forget? No. I reject your made-up definition of knowledge.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2063 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:40 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2068 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 1:29 PM ringo has replied

  
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