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Junior Member (Idle past 1592 days) Posts: 18 From: Pittsburgh Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Biased accounts of intelligent design | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 6121 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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Nah, it's drive-by spam. If he doesn't come back it should be deleted. I prefer the term from Mrs. Doubtfire: "It was a run-by fruiting!"
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6121 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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Too bad. I've never been very clear what the differences are between ID and YEC. I think that a lot of that confusion is due to YECs having replaced their young-earth claims with ID claims and arguments after Edwards v. Aguillard (1987) blew "creation science's" cover and exposed it as religious in nature -- remember that the purpose of "creation science" was to fool the courts and the public by pretending that their objections to evolution were for "purely scientific reasons, nothing religious about it." Both YEC and ID are part of the anti-evolution movement whose roots go back to the early 20th century, but each had a different history and a different approach -- at first. The YEC approach is firmly based on a literalist interpretation of the Bible and is overtly based on sectarian Christian beliefs. I don't know how staunchly the YEC position was held early in the movement (eg, its 1920's heyday), but I've read indications of that community becoming polarized during the 50's and 60's (eg, YECs Drs. Morris & Gish leaving the American Scientific Affiliation (ASA) to form their own YEC creationist groups when the ASA wouldn't take a hard-enough line against evolution and an old earth), such that when the movement was remobilized after Epperson v. Arkansas (1968) overturned the "monkey laws" and brought evolution back into the classroom (and also made the "creation science" deception necessary for creationists). We hadn't heard much about ID before Edwards v. Aguillard (1987), but before then I did see lawyer and ID co-founder Phillip Johnson on NOVA demanding that evolution and science follow courtroom standards for evidence, which immediately informed me that he did not understand how science works -- this was not stated by him, but that would be analogous to requiring all police investigations at all levels to follow courtroom standards, in which case no investigation could ever follow clues nor form hypotheses. Ostensibly, ID objects to evolution on philosophy grounds. Basically, they misrepresent science as adhering to an atheistic philosophical naturalism which teaches that the physical universe is all that exists; ie, no God. Instead, the reality is that science practices methodological naturalism in which science does not try to use non-natural explanations (eg, the supernatural) solely because there is no way in which science can work with such explanations (eg, we cannot observe, measure, test, verify, nor even detect the existence of the supernatural). In reality, many IDists' religious beliefs also factor into their opposition to evolution, such as Phillip Johnson's remark that he opposes evolution "because it leaves God with nothing to do". But, just as the YECs would hide their religious motives from the public with "creation science" (AKA "The Game of 'Hide the Bible'"), IDists also hide their religious motives from the public. Yet both YECs and IDists would speak very openly in private groups about their religious motives. Both groups would publically allow for a Creator other than their own particular god (eg, YEC "public school edition" educational materials defining the "creation model" as involving an "unnamed Creator", ID rhetoric that the Designer could be anything including aliens) all with a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, know what I mean?, know what I mean?", all while in private among themselves (and religious groups) they would state outright that they are talking only about the Christian god. IDists would conduct outreach presentations to the YECs trying to build a coalition to oppose evolution. But then with Edwards v. Aguillard (1987) destroying their ability to continue using "creation science", YECs adopted ID arguments. For example, YECs dealing with the public will no longer try to use young-earth claims and will even do everything they can to avoid presenting one (eg, a staunch YEC I corresponded with over a period of 20 years absolutely refused to ever present or discuss even a single young-earth claim), but rather almost all of their arguments are about complexity (ignoring the inconvenient fact that the most common byproduct of evolutionary processes is high levels of complexity). And the most famous case of this adoption of ID terminology is Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005) about the book, Of Pandas and People, whose conversion from a creationist to an ID book was substituting all occurrences of "creationists" with "design proponents" resulting in the smoking gun, "cdesign proponentsists". So I submit that one of the main reasons why it can be so hard to differentiate between YEC and ID is because most of the ID claims and arguments that we encounter are from YECs.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6121 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
DWise1 writes:
But the questions YEC addresses are not "religious" and the methods used have to do with the actual phenomena, not religious principles, so it's not quite fair to accuse them of trying to "fool" anyone by "pretending" something. -- remember that the purpose of "creation science" was to fool the courts and the public by pretending that their objections to evolution were for "purely scientific reasons, nothing religious about it." Faith, please read what I actually wrote. I was talking specifically about "creation science", not about YEC in general as you took it to be. "CREATION SCIENCE". Even though "creation science" was derived from YEC, it is not the same thing. YEC is a religious belief, whereas "creation science" is a deliberately crafted legalistic deception. Not the same thing! Since I'm in a rush now to go meet my friend for her birthday dinner, I'll copy from my site's index page, DWISE1'S CREATION / EVOLUTION HOME PAGE (apologies for not having the time to correct for some loss of formatting, especially the loss of links):
quote: Edited by dwise1, : Restored the unsorted list format
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