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Author Topic:   strange experience at confession
Posts: 17008
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7

Message 46 of 49 (861259)
08-19-2019 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
08-18-2019 2:42 PM

Re: My 2 cents
I think you are having a problem with the word "objective." Just because we only know of the objective evidence through written accounts of witness testimony doesn't make the evidence itself less objective

The problem is with your idea of what it means to have evidence. If all we have is the stories - even if they are witness accounts - then we only have the stories which are not physical evidence at all, s dit is the objectivity of the stories that matters.

Either the Red Sea parted leaving a path of dry land or it didn't. Witnesses say it did, Moses or his scribe wrote what the witnesses said.

No, there is no significant evidence that Moses, or anyone contemporary with him, wrote a word of it. On the evidence we do have it is likely written hundreds of years after the supposed time of the events (which can’t even be reliably identified).

If it did that's objective evidence of some kind of supernatural intervention, which the witnesses call God.

The very fact that you have to say “if” shows us that we don’t have that as evidence.

Same with all the other miracles. I can't show them to you because they were one-time events that came and went and left only witness testimony to their having been.

In other words the actual miracles aren’t available as evidence. All we have are stories (which are generally not even written by witnesses)

You think you can dismiss it all because it was written down, but that's nonsensical.

You cannot reasonably accuse people of dismissing evidence that we don’t actually have. If all we have are stories then the stories must be evaluated. Just calling them witness testimony is not enough to establish them as factually reliable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 2:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

Posts: 6023
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7

Message 47 of 49 (861260)
08-19-2019 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
08-18-2019 11:32 PM

Re: My 2 cents
... and make no mention of evidence of encampments either.

Did you see the list of items they did find on the mountain?

Following this theory, Emmanuel Anati excavated at the mountain, and discovered that it was a major paleolithic cult centre, with the surrounding plateau covered with shrines, altars, stone circles, stone pillars, and over 40,000 rock engravings.

The paleolithic era ended more than 10,000 years ago. If this desert could preserve stone aged artifacts it most certainly would have preserved the artifacts from the massed wanderings of millions of people only 4000 years ago.

They couldn't mention any evidence of the Exodus encampments because there is none when there should have been. It didn't happen.

Fear of God means fear to violate God's commandment against lying.

That doesn't stop religious people from lying today. Why would you think it would have worked back then?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 08-18-2019 11:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 08-19-2019 7:05 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Suspended Member (Idle past 464 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001

Message 48 of 49 (861263)
08-19-2019 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by AZPaul3
08-19-2019 3:38 AM

Re: My 2 cents
I sure didn't want to have to be so skeptical about the sciences that establish such things and think they have the dates right, but I am. Shrines and other cultic objects on the mountain just can't be as old as they say they are. If it is Mt. Sinai then they had to have been built there after the Exodus but it doesn't sound like Mt. Sinai. There's another mountain also designated for that honor but I don't remember much about it except that it seemed a likely choice when I read about it.

Anyway the evidence of encampments in the sand isn't going to last very long. Stone shrines and other cultic memorabilia should last much longer.

We get called liars all the time these days. I don't know how often it may be true but a lot less than you think. Fear of God was probably even more scary back in the days of the Exodus but it works today too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2019 3:38 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Posts: 19252
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1

Message 49 of 49 (861291)
08-19-2019 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
08-18-2019 2:31 AM

Re: My 2 cents
Maybe you should learn a lesson from Richard Nixon: It's the cover-up that gets you in the end. If you stopped pretending that your beliefs were sensible, you might look more sensible.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 08-18-2019 2:31 AM Phat has not yet responded

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