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Author | Topic: Chance as a sole-product of the Universe | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6735 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 2.9 |
There is a reason for that.
Good reason for missing his main point. When you get to the "demon that jumps into the middle" of his card game part you'll understand.
Of course you would. Like GDR, Sproul and Thug your mind is warped to think in that direction. I was not objecting to the physicists' use of "chance" but Sproul's bastardized version. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 714 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I listened to more of it and don't thlnk I'm following it very well so I shouldn't say anything at all about it. Sorry.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Stile Member Posts: 4076 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
I don't think it was very good. A coin lands heads or tails based on chance. If so - then I see why you think this was a good podcast.
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Phat Member Posts: 15992 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
What I got from the podcast is the idea that probability and chance are two different things. Probability is measured and thus known, whereas chance is open ended. The point of the coin toss was that the external agent launching the coin was known. The determination was based on gravity and the physics surrounding the coin. Also the strength exerted by the coin tosser. Chance (or probability) was an abstract and not in any way responsible for the outcome. In other words, chance itself is not a causal agent. Chance and the Sovereignty of God: Randomness
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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Stile Member Posts: 4076 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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Yes, that's what the scammer is selling you. Sometimes there are different contexts... but both words can be used for all the different contexts.
Nope, both are measured and thus known, and both are open ended in different contexts.
Just like probability.
This is true. Chance, and probability, are no causal agents. And they are also not "nothing."
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Phat Member Posts: 15992 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
OK, I'll go with your argument. Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6735 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 2.9 |
That is not what is being said. For your majik man, when someone says “the universe arose by chance†he asserts they are saying “the universe arose from nothingâ€. The two statements are not equivalent. And he forms his assertion in a disingenuous and logically dishonest way. He is just another charlatan collecting silver from the weak minded believer. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Stile Member Posts: 4076 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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It's not my argument, it's yours. You already seem to understand how probability is "something" rather than nothing:
I'm just saying that the same thing applies to chance. "Chance is measured and thus known..." Chance - and probability, are the likelihoods of possible outcomes.
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FLRW Member (Idle past 4 days) Posts: 70 Joined: |
So a probability of 0 means there’s literally no chance of that thing happening, a probability of 0.5 means there’s a 50% chance, and a probability of 1 means that it’s certain to happen. As you can see, the idea of probability and chance is the same.
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Phat Member Posts: 15992 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
This is a better podcast that more fully explains Sprouls logic.(or as AZ Paul3 claims, ignorance.
![]() Chance:The Modern Myth And all that Genesis 3:22 says is that we humans gaine the knowledge of knowing both good and evil. This is hardly giving us any sort of divine status nor elevating us into Deity status. In my mind, the evidence these days shows that we are not clear on which is which. Scripture even confirms this:
Repeated later in Proverbs:
That last one is directed at me, the compulsive gambler. There is no such thing as chance. My problem is that I want to force Gods will (through prayer and pleading)to favor me...a desire that i am in no power to bring about. God is a God of tough love. Probably wants me to end up nearly broke like you, giving away all my spare change. Dont you ever think about your need to retire and realize that you cant count on the state or the people to support you? I do...which is why I get stressed and gamble...oddly counting on God...but according to *my* terms. Im learning, though. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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Phat Member Posts: 15992 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
What I mean is that probability is strictly measured...when they make random chip generators for slot machines or print a million lottery tickets, there is a known probability of precisely which ones will be winners and how much they will pay. It is predetermined. The universe, if it arose solely by chance, would arise from a mindless math concept that had, according to you, a set probability.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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Phat Member Posts: 15992 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
Chance is by definition not predetermined....at least not by humans. If you wish to argue that chance (that created the universe) was predetermined, you need to explain Who or What determined and/or set the probability into concrete terms. Listen to the audio that I sent ringo: Chance:The Modern Myth And AZPaul3, igf you are watching, explain to me if you still think Sprouls argument is deceitful and why. Stile, you can chime in also. I want an opportunity to examine any vacuousness of the claim. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
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ringo Member Posts: 19611 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
It says, "The man has now become like one of us." That's pretty clear.
Funny you should start caring about evidence all of a sudden. ![]() It's true that there isn't always a clear-cut distinction between good and evil. Most things have good aspects and bad aspects. It can be difficult to choose the best course in a specific situation because we have to weigh the good against the bad. The same apparently applies to God, which would explain why he sometimes changed His mind.
The problem is that you want to attribute the results to God - and when you lose, you have trouble reconciling the God-is-on-your-side myth with reality. In fact, it is about chance. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.
I am retired and I am counting on the people to support me. "Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns" -- Woody Guthrie
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Tangle Member Posts: 8549 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 2.4 |
You're getting things mixed up. If something is random an individual event can't be predicted.
No, it could be random. In fact, given what we know about the quantum world it almost certainly was. But we're both out of our depth. All you need to know as a gambler is that chance and probability ARE the same and that you have no influence on either no matter what you think and no matter how hard you pray. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5112 Joined: Member Rating: 2.7 |
Unfortunately, my university textbook on probability didn't talk much about chance. My take on it is that the two words, chance and probability, basically describe the same thing but also two distinctly different things. Chance describes the situation in which things are not predetermined. You flip a coin or roll dice. Nobody knows ahead of time the outcome of such events, therefore the outcome is up to chance. There is another situation, one alluded to at least twice by Gene Roddenberry [FOOTNOTE]: stochastic processes. The idea is that the physical universe is so deterministic that if we were to know all the factors and variables to a problem then we would always know the outcome. For example, let's take rolling two standard dice; eg, the outcome of rolling two cubes with differently numbered unique dots on each side with certain given initial orientations, intimate details of their construction, etc. If we were to know all those many factors (which is humanly impossible), then those processes would all be deterministic, no chance involved. But since we cannot possibly know all those many different factors BTW, to delve into just some of the variables to think of when making dice, look into that work of retired USAF enlisted and wargamer, Lou Zocchi of GameScience. [FOOTNOTE] The idea of stochastics is that such computations are beyond our ability to perform them, so they are better dealt with as probabilistic.
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