Chance as a sole-product of the Universe

So I didn't hear him say anything about chance being a power and all that.

There is a reason for that.

I only heard a bit of the Sproul audio

Good reason for missing his main point.

When you get to the "demon that jumps into the middle" of his card game part you'll understand.

That's perilously close to saying notning happens without God it seems to me.

Of course you would. Like GDR, Sproul and Thug your mind is warped to think in that direction.

I was not objecting to the physicists' use of "chance" but Sproul's bastardized version.

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I listened to more of it and don't thlnk I'm following it very well so I shouldn't say anything at all about it. Sorry.

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Thugpreacha writes: There was a show on todays radio. Creation By Chance A good audio podcast.

I don't think it was very good.

A coin lands heads or tails based on chance.
Do you think "nothing" makes a coin land heads or tails?

If so - then I see why you think this was a good podcast.
It not - then this podcast is terrible for the same reason: "chance" is not equal to "nothing," and anyone attempting to force that conclusion is obviously scamming you for another agenda. Such dishonorable tactics are not appreciated.

What I got from the podcast is the idea that probability and chance are two different things. Probability is measured and thus known, whereas chance is open ended. The point of the coin toss was that the external agent launching the coin was known. The determination was based on gravity and the physics surrounding the coin. Also the strength exerted by the coin tosser. Chance (or probability) was an abstract and not in any way responsible for the outcome. In other words, chance itself is not a causal agent. Chance and the Sovereignty of God: Randomness

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Thugpreacha writes: What I got from the podcast is the idea that probability and chance are two different things.

Yes, that's what the scammer is selling you.
They are not two different things.
They are both the exact same thing.

Sometimes there are different contexts... but both words can be used for all the different contexts.

Probability is measured and thus known, whereas chance is open ended.

Nope, both are measured and thus known, and both are open ended in different contexts.

Chance (or probability) was an abstract and not in any way responsible for the outcome.

Just like probability.

In other words, chance itself is not a causal agent.

This is true.
And is also true with probability.

Chance, and probability, are no causal agents. And they are also not "nothing."

OK, I'll go with your argument. Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

That is not what is being said.

For your majik man, when someone says “the universe arose by chance” he asserts they are saying “the universe arose from nothing”.

The two statements are not equivalent. And he forms his assertion in a disingenuous and logically dishonest way.

He is just another charlatan collecting silver from the weak minded believer.

Thugpreacha writes: OK, I'll go with your argument. Explain to me why chance is "something" rather than nothing.

It's not my argument, it's yours.
My argument is that chance and probability are the same thing.

You already seem to understand how probability is "something" rather than nothing:

Thugpreacha writes: Probability is measured and thus known...

I'm just saying that the same thing applies to chance.

"Chance is measured and thus known..."

Chance - and probability, are the likelihoods of possible outcomes.
That is "something" and not "nothing."

So a probability of 0 means there’s literally no chance of that thing happening, a probability of 0.5 means there’s a 50% chance, and a probability of 1 means that it’s certain to happen. As you can see, the idea of probability and chance is the same.

This is a better podcast that more fully explains Sprouls logic.(or as AZ Paul3 claims, ignorance. )
Chance:The Modern Myth

And all that Genesis 3:22 says is that we humans gaine the knowledge of knowing both good and evil. This is hardly giving us any sort of divine status nor elevating us into Deity status. In my mind, the evidence these days shows that we are not clear on which is which. Scripture even confirms this:

Prov 14:12 writes: There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. NKJV

Repeated later in Proverbs:

Prov 16:25-17:1 writes: 25 There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. 26 The person who labors, labors for himself, For his hungry mouth drives him on. 27 An ungodly man digs up evil, And it is on his lips like a burning fire. 28 A perverse man sows strife, And a whisperer separates the best of friends. 29 A violent man entices his neighbor, And leads him in a way that is not good. 30 He winks his eye to devise perverse things; He purses his lips and brings about evil. 31 The silver-haired head is a crown of glory, If it is found in the way of righteousness. 32 He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, And he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city. 33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD. NKJV

That last one is directed at me, the compulsive gambler. There is no such thing as chance. My problem is that I want to force Gods will (through prayer and pleading)to favor me...a desire that i am in no power to bring about. God is a God of tough love. Probably wants me to end up nearly broke like you, giving away all my spare change. Dont you ever think about your need to retire and realize that you cant count on the state or the people to support you? I do...which is why I get stressed and gamble...oddly counting on God...but according to *my* terms. Im learning, though.

What I mean is that probability is strictly measured...when they make random chip generators for slot machines or print a million lottery tickets, there is a known probability of precisely which ones will be winners and how much they will pay. It is predetermined. The universe, if it arose solely by chance, would arise from a mindless math concept that had, according to you, a set probability.

Chance - and probability, are the likelihoods of possible outcomes.

Probability is predetermined. Its value is set.

Chance is by definition not predetermined....at least not by humans. If you wish to argue that chance (that created the universe) was predetermined, you need to explain Who or What determined and/or set the probability into concrete terms.

Listen to the audio that I sent ringo: Chance:The Modern Myth And AZPaul3, igf you are watching, explain to me if you still think Sprouls argument is deceitful and why. Stile, you can chime in also. I want an opportunity to examine any vacuousness of the claim.

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Phat writes: And all that Genesis 3:22 says is that we humans gaine the knowledge of knowing both good and evil. This is hardly giving us any sort of divine status nor elevating us into Deity status.

It says, "The man has now become like one of us." That's pretty clear.

Phat writes: In my mind, the evidence these days shows that we are not clear on which is which.

Funny you should start caring about evidence all of a sudden.

It's true that there isn't always a clear-cut distinction between good and evil. Most things have good aspects and bad aspects. It can be difficult to choose the best course in a specific situation because we have to weigh the good against the bad.

The same apparently applies to God, which would explain why he sometimes changed His mind.

Phat writes: There is no such thing as chance. My problem is that I want to force Gods will (through prayer and pleading)to favor me...a desire that i am in no power to bring about.

The problem is that you want to attribute the results to God - and when you lose, you have trouble reconciling the God-is-on-your-side myth with reality. In fact, it is about chance. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.

Phat writes: Dont you ever think about your need to retire and realize that you cant count on the state or the people to support you?

I am retired and I am counting on the people to support me.

Thugpreacha writes: What I mean is that probability is strictly measured...when they make random chip generators for slot machines or print a million lottery tickets, there is a known probability of precisely which ones will be winners and how much they will pay. It is predetermined.

You're getting things mixed up. If something is random an individual event can't be predicted.

The universe, if it arose solely by chance, would arise from a mindless math concept that had, according to you, a set probability.

No, it could be random. In fact, given what we know about the quantum world it almost certainly was. But we're both out of our depth.

All you need to know as a gambler is that chance and probability ARE the same and that you have no influence on either no matter what you think and no matter how hard you pray.

All you need to know as a gambler is that chance and probability ARE the same and that you have no influence on either no matter what you think and no matter how hard you pray.

Unfortunately, my university textbook on probability didn't talk much about chance.

My take on it is that the two words, chance and probability, basically describe the same thing but also two distinctly different things.

Chance describes the situation in which things are not predetermined. You flip a coin or roll dice. Nobody knows ahead of time the outcome of such events, therefore the outcome is up to chance.

There is another situation, one alluded to at least twice by Gene Roddenberry [FOOTNOTE]: stochastic processes. The idea is that the physical universe is so deterministic that if we were to know all the factors and variables to a problem then we would always know the outcome. For example, let's take rolling two standard dice; eg, the outcome of rolling two cubes with differently numbered unique dots on each side with certain given initial orientations, intimate details of their construction, etc. If we were to know all those many factors (which is humanly impossible), then those processes would all be deterministic, no chance involved.

But since we cannot possibly know all those many different factors

BTW, to delve into just some of the variables to think of when making dice, look into that work of retired USAF enlisted and wargamer, Lou Zocchi of GameScience.

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[FOOTNOTE]
Gene Roddenberry created two different story-lines about androids that I am aware of: Androids CDR Data and Questor of The Questor Tapes (1974). Both androids performed the exact same task (Data in The Royale (S2E12--1989March27)).
In both scenes, the android finds himself at a craps table and must win the toss. Both androids input all possible factors (including the feel of the craps table), perform the calculations, and make the winning toss.

The idea of stochastics is that such computations are beyond our ability to perform them, so they are better dealt with as probabilistic.