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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
PaulK
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Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 84 of 263 (322911)
06-18-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by mike the wiz
06-18-2006 12:21 PM


Re: Back to school boys
quote:

Why? I still see it as the position with the infinite regression.

What infinite regression ? I certainly haven't suggested one. (If anything such an argument is better directed against the Fine Tuning argument).

I'm not budging because you haven't given me any reason to budge. You've got no real arguent or evidence.

As I pointed out the Fine Tuning argument assumes that chance is a valid explanation. Thus if a multiverse raises the probability to an acceptable level it provides a valid alternative to Fine Tining, without the problems. And given the fact that the multiverse is not proposed simply as an alternative to Fine Tuning - it's a consequence of some cosmologies - there seems to be no good reason to accept the idea of a Fine Tuner at present.n


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by mike the wiz, posted 06-18-2006 12:21 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 86 of 263 (323329)
06-19-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by mike the wiz
06-19-2006 9:01 AM


Re: Back to school boys
quote:

The fine-tuning argument isn't my argument


Yet it is an argument you've used in this thread.

quote:

The facts about the universe being habitable, as far as I know, doesn't equal the fine tuning argument.

It's about half of it - the other half being that this is too unlikely to occur without a creator. Which your denial of chance with regard to universe formation seems intended to defend....f


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PaulK
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Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 106 of 263 (787566)
07-18-2016 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
07-17-2016 8:39 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
quote:

There is a good series on the concept of chance which I listen to regularly.

Based on the quotes you offer here, it doesn't seem to be very good.

quote:

Their basic premise is that chance is logical only when verified by probability

That would be a very silly thing to say. Can you explain what they mean ? Because it certainly isn't clear.

quote:


Can something come from nothing? Was "chance" the cosmic power behind creation? Despite scientific advances, there remains an undercurrent of irrationality in scientific writing.


I hardly think that their refusal to understand the relevant science - even at a layman's level - indicates that science is irrational in any respect.


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PaulK
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Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 109 of 263 (787582)
07-18-2016 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:13 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
So is this just the arrogance of the ignorant, or just plain lying ? And how could either be considered good?

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 Message 108 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 115 of 263 (787591)
07-18-2016 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
07-18-2016 1:34 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
quote:

I am not knowingly lying nor am I arrogant apart from believing through faith and considering that better than evidence

I am not accusing you of that. I am accusing you of endorsing one of the two, and I would like to know which one. Or do you have some other explanation for the obvious misrepresentation you attribute to this podcast ?


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 Message 110 by Phat, posted 07-18-2016 1:34 PM Phat has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 119 of 263 (787646)
07-19-2016 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
07-19-2016 7:12 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
So why is his imagination better than reality ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 07-19-2016 7:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:33 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 121 of 263 (787649)
07-20-2016 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
07-20-2016 12:33 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
quote:

the whole point is this: His imagination is reality.

Some unnamed theologians imagination is reality ? How could that be ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:33 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:51 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 123 of 263 (787651)
07-20-2016 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
07-20-2016 12:51 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Oh. But I asked why the imagination of this theologian you quoted was better than reality. He certainly seems to think so. And really that's the underlying point of the quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 1:30 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 125 of 263 (787654)
07-20-2016 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
07-20-2016 1:30 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Refusing to even fairly consider the work of others would seem to be a mark of arrogance, yes.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 241 of 263 (861478)
08-22-2019 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by dwise1
08-22-2019 4:34 AM


Re: Not A Chance
I would say that probability is a quantification of chance. Probability theory was initially created (by Pascal and Fermat) to deal with gambling.

There is absolutely no requirement for the probabilities to be intentionally pre-determined. Naturally the probabilities Pascal and Fermat were looking at were not known in advance - that is what the theory was for.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 263 of 263 (861629)
08-24-2019 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Phat
08-23-2019 2:59 PM


Re: Not A Chance
quote:
And the serpant did not tell us the whole truth. We became "like God" or like one of us...only in that we became aware of the difference between good and ****.

Which is what the serpent said. It is you who is not telling the whole truth by leaving that out.

Genesis 3:5

5 for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and ****."

(NRSV)

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