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Author | Topic: Who Made God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: This is but your opinion and does nothing but reinforces your brand of secular humanist/Jewish/Episcopalian philosophy based on your own minds conclusions as to how God *must* be. Most of the "clubs" in Christianity believe (though cannot prove) that Jesus exists outside the books. Jesus is alive.
The author of John was marketing a revisionist Jesus tale which is quite different than what is found in the other Gospels. The Jesus the author of John markets is as different from the Jesus character found in the other Gospels as the God in Genesis 1 is different than the God in Genesis 2&3.But as I have explained many times here at EvC, if that was true, if Jesus was God when living here on Earth, then it simply denigrates and diminishes and worth or value to Jesus life and Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension. No. It simply forces you to consider that just maybe not all of the apologists are conmen and liars. It is clearly evident how much influence the Judaism and common sense of your Mother, combined with Socratic thinking teachers who embraced all religions as human cultural constructs and did not teach jesus as eternally living in our hearts shaped what you stubbornly defend to be your brand of Christianity. In my opinion, you do both harm and good. You do good through what you teach by forcing your students to think about personal responsibility and your basic message that says that the *evidence* shpws that the God of the Bible was simply an evolving human construct and that Jesus was simply human. Kudos for a secular humanist hero. Yes, we are all called to be responsible...but sadly you do harm by not teaching that we humans can only succeed by being in Christ. You teach that everyone is saved. In a sense, you teach that we all are chosen and saved as long as we respond to the teachings of a human teacher. And that GOD is eternally unknowable. I don't wish the last days on anyone. I am in fact convinced that if the world suffers a major period of war and unrest it will be our fault and not the fault of any devil or demon. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You act as if logic, reason, and (secular) reality are the only paths through which to teach the bible. Answer my statement:
Most of the "clubs" in Christianity believe (though cannot prove) that Jesus exists outside the books. True or false? Because this is what really separates your club from others.(or at least you) As long as you teach that humans create their own God, you are doing a disservice, in my opinion. Yes, you are teaching people to be responsible and think for themselves. Any motivational speaker can do that. Looking at the Big Picture, God first chose the Jewish people exclusively. Later, He added the Gentiles, which thanks to Paul became Protestants. Perhaps still later He will choose the Atheists as well. In which case your brand of Christian logic may make sense, assuming that humans can become responsible and productive without even acknowledging God or Jesus existence. It strikes a nerve in me, however. A bad vibe. Essentially you are preaching a whole new Gospel, where the snake tells the truth, God lies (and is but a literary character in a book) and that *we* are responsible. How is this not the Gospel of secular humanism??Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
dwise1,replying to me writes: Stop for just one moment. What is so harmful with embracing just that? Forget about church and religion. All that I (or any Baptist Divorce Group, perhaps) is doing is telling someone that a relationship with God(in the incarnation of Jesus) is the starting point for all other relationships to succeed in their life. Granted I could hear the ghost of Stile whispering that "this works for some people,but not for me".So I'm attempting to also consider you guys viewpoint. Freedom from religion and all that. lets make sure our kids grow up to be secular humanist critical thinkers! Perhaps we need to consider the possibility that God exists and wants a relationship with us. Explain why this statement alone causes you to cringe? Is it the whole freedom from religion thing that Barker preaches? Because to be honest, I don't agree with his conclusions and I feel as offended by his anti christianity as many of you feel about Christianity.
And sadly you do harm by teaching that we humans can only succeed by being in Christ. Here is one case: the DivorceCare program. It's a Baptist program that's widely used (the US Army required it for all couples going through marital problems, and might still require it) that apparently had been put together by Christian counselors. Overall, it's well meaning, but, like all Christian-counseling-based singles and marital programs/presentations, ends up doing more potential harm than good with used outside the intended audience (Christians, especially of the conservative/evangelical/fundamentalist variety). OK I get it. All you people want is to keep religious beliefs out of mandatory public policy. Perhaps this is a necessary process.
In a late-80's speech, ex-fundamentalist preacher Dan Barker, now "America's Leading Atheist", described fundamentalism as "when your theology becomes your psychology." I've studied both Theology and Psychology, so I think I get it. Our beliefs run very strong among us. We honestly believe that this world needs a spiritual infusion. Perhaps our zeal will actually cause Armageddon as a self fulfilling prophecy. So I'm open to understanding your counter views. Therefore it would make sense that these Christians would need their own specially trained Christian counselors, since normal counselors would not give them the theological motivations and justifications that their altered psychologies require. By the same token, Christian counselors would not be suitable for normals, especially the non-Christians, the non-religious, the agnostics, and the atheists. And that, essentially sums it all up.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat, I am not preaching anything, rather I am reporting what is actually written. It seems it is not me or what I post that gets your panties in a bind but rather what is actually written in the Bible. I simply cannot believe that a majority of Christian apologetics lies. More likely, you have no preconceived notions of how God should be and how the snake should be. Thus you let the text tell a different tale than the majority of apologetics tells.
If anyone honestly reads Genesis 2 & 3 then they would admit that in the story the serpent tells the truth, the God lies and in fact the God character in the story even admits that the serpent told the truth and that Adam & Eve, far from falling, became more like God. It is Jesus that says we are responsible as well as Paul and many other characters in the Bible. I've never doubted that we are responsible. That in and of itself gives us no reason to throw away the position that God has or should have in our lives. Your position places humanity in charge of its own destiny. It was never intended to be that way.
And you REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY need to learn some history of Christianity. Of course I knew that. And you know that I did. You just always seem to relish taking an opportunity to correct something I carelessly say as if i am stupid or ignorant. Which is a bad trait. Learn to humble yourself. Paul had absolutely NOTHING top do with Protestantism.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If it is true, it's because "most" of those clubs reject what's in the Bible like you do. They prefer their own made-up versions. You are in the same club as jar, essentially. What possible motive would *you* have for teaching that God and Jesus are simply characters in a book rather than a living Spirit which seeks Communion with humanity? You seem to think humanity can do good enough simply doing what the characters suggest and that its ok to be secular humanist atheists. And there is one basic reason why its not ok. Because none are righteous. We need Communion as well as responsible effort. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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stile writes: So what would you do if you someday found out that your solutions were wrong? People are different.Different solutions work for different people. Forcing all people into one solution is, basically, what's caused pretty much all wars in human history. Isnt it a bit ironic that most of Christian online defenders of the faith are not skilled or Christlike and end up doing more harm than good for the cause?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: I think that many Evangelicals assume that whenever early believers gathered together it was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit such as is described (and in my opinion accurately) in the book of Acts. Nicea, however, was likely not such a gathering. I doubt whether many of those Bishops and officials walked in the Spirit on a regular basis....but then again, you will ask what this even means. You basically argue that God is a product of human imagination, consensus, and mythos...whereas Faith and I would argue that God exists perfectly and impartially independent of human input. What we can't do, however, is explain how it is more than coincidental that the God of modern imagination is uncanningly defined through human authors throughout the ages....I suppose we would argue that the Holy Spirit inspired folks such as John Calvin. RC Sproul would likely agree. I believe that Sproul was not simply some conman. He had a genuine love of scripture and of logic, reason, and reality but where you differ is that you are unafraid to throw God and the Holy Spirit away and just go with your reason. Nicea was primarily a gathering to kick some factions out of the mainstream Christian communion, and the Nicean Creed was primarily designed as a political touchstone much like the KJV was designed as a political tool to try to tone down the Anti-Roman Catholic segments of the society and to establish the Divine Right of Kings to rule.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Yes, it does. The believers gathered in the Upper Room in Acts were not simply a hodgepodge group with individual beliefs. They all walked in the Spirit. Why do you think those gathered at Nicea 1 were any different than any gathering of prelates today? Does it matter whether is is a College of Cardinals or the First President and the Twelve or the General Conference or the Chapter of Monks?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You are so untrusting and too skeptical. Though a healthy trait, I think you have a bias against Christian preachers specifically. Theodoric warns us of Ravi Zacharias because of some incident that in Theos opinion tarnished his legacy and reputation.
I consider Sproul one of the better ones, for he uses basic philosophical ideas coupled with traditional (and common) Theological understanding of scripture. Zacharias and many of the ministers at his site also use good logic. But im curious. On the atheist side, do you have any favorite people to listen to? Personally I like Matt Dillahunty...he is very logical. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I have read numerous arguments and positions from many sides regarding what the Bible actually says. I also listen to many philosophies and worldviews from both atheists and believers. I learn a lot, but have not quite arrived at a conclusion. I think I have one loosely sketched out, however.
ringo writes: And you can (and have) found words of wisdom to live by in Matthew 25. jar used to always point out to me the idea of source versus content. Many people are hung up defending the Source of the Bible. To me, this is important only in that I believe that a higher source (God, the highest source) exists and desires communion with humanity. That being said, I can also respect many non-believers if they advocate doing what Jesus told us to do and if they are otherwise loving and forgiving towards the many attitudes of smugness, arrogance, and know-it-all beliefs of many believers. By their works(fruits) you shall know them. This morning I listened to some good podcasts. You can find bunk on page one. Several good points were presented.
Another podcast which I found respectable was from Vince Vitale. (You once asked me to find you an honest apologist. Vince and his wife qualify) The podcast was titled Is A United Christian Church Possible? From the transcript:
quote:I expect that you agree with Vitale, as you yourself emphasize the message (over the messenger ) The church can and should be unified and of one mind and heart regarding the major issues. quote: Comments? Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Rubbish. Human wisdom fails to explain the narrative. Do you honestly think that a bunch of writers from among a largely illiterate population each with their own agenda(politically or religiously) compiled these manuscripts? The Bible confirms a human search for God and subsequent contact. jar will trot out his "facts" about different Gods being described, but he is not a trustworthy source since he is a closet secular humanist who only claims Christianity to legitimize his ability to represent it with his faith-killing logic. Whenever you are told to throw God away and use your own human reasoning to summerize the Bible, know that there are principalities and powers with agendas to keep your faith quenched and in a state of doubt. Every Christian knows that the central focus of the books known as the Bible is to lift up Jesus Christ and celebrate the communion between Man and God. If you want storybooks, go find better ones. The source of the Bible is human wisdom. We know that because the same wisdom is available in other scriptures, some of them older than the Bible. Last I checked, Long John Silver is still available. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yeah yeah yeah. You have a legal claim to such a title, I know. Yet you (and ringo) think that all (or a majority of apologists) are dishonest. I might ask what it is about you that makes you so honest...? I personally think you lean more towards defining the mission of Jesus as a reformation of judaism and that you have a motive to point out the errors in Biblical Christianity and guide people into thinking that it is simply misinterpreted and actually *should* be an extension of Judaism. You would then ask me "What Does The Evidence Show?"
Lets see what the apologists reply:
quote:So it seems that when you (and to a similar degree ringo) "teach" scripture, you have it describe a different "God" than the mainstream apologists do. Dare I say that you are at odds with the global majority of those who call themselves Christians. You are urging people to simply read the text, which is normally commendable, but I find it a problem when you and the mainstream Christianity disagree. Surely *they* are not all carny hucksters. And if so, how do we know that what you are selling (Personal Responsibility and secular humanistic do-goodedness) is the right product to be pushing? And i see that here at EvC you have a hungry secular humanist audience who wants nothing to do with an actual God marketed by reformed Calvinists. You will sell a lot of what you write here....but only here. Also I do not take things out of context like so many "Biblical Christians" seem to do I will admit that you have attempted to teach me to read the text and decide for myself what it means rather than buying the idea sold by the Evangelicals...err I mean Hucksters. I also rely on Gods inspiration, however. You never seem to even mention that.
Jesus was not a Christian Point blank question: Was Jesus God? Is Jesus God? What does the evidence show? If you are a Christian (or even a good Jew) you will have a definite answer. You likely will try and frame the issue by saying that your personal beliefs are irrelevant. I call bullshit.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ned writes: Point taken. I have a worthy opponent, though he himself claims to be Christian. Which leads me to wonder why we disagree...shouldn't we have the same "Spirit"? What are your basic beliefs, Ned...are you an atheist or will you simply claim to be a critical thinker? Don't get me wrong...I respect your reply, even if it gives more credibility to my opponent than to myself. I need to ask myself who I represent and who I intend to represent. Thanks for your criticism. Funny thing to those of us reading what you and Jar write; he actually quotes the bible to support what he says. We can read things supporting his views.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes:
None of the Bible comes from God unless the God is intentionally supplying false and misleading information. There is no other explanation possible since there are numerous examples of stories that evolve as they are retold and also examples of direct mutually exclusive accounts of supposedly the same event. Over the years I've covered many such examples here. Two clear examples are from the New Testament; the evolution of the Great Commission and the encounter of Saul on the road to Damascus.Dredge writes:
The fact that you’ve put so much effort into debunking the Bible and its supernatural contents strongly suggests you are motivated by some gigantic hang-up about Christianity. Maybe you were abused by some fag priest when you were ten. Who knows?Additional evidence that the Bible is a creation of humans is the fact that there is no such thing as "The Bible" but rather a whole set of canons ranging from the smallest that contains only the first five books and none of the New Testament to the largest that contains over 80 books.
Dredge writes: News flash!! God’s official organisation on earth - the Catholic Church - defined exactly what the Bible contains about 1500 years ago. jar writes:
Very sure? Oh, that's right...God saves everybody! I forgot! Doh.....
But if there is a Heaven I am very sure Christians will be a very small minority there and that there will be far more atheist, agnostics, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews. Taoists as well as followers of Confucius and Mencius in attendance.None of the Bible comes from God unless the God is intentionally supplying false and misleading information. There is no other explanation possible ... Quite sure about that too, I see. Let's summarize: You are "very sure" that Heaven, if Heaven exists...will have more of the people who never believed but simply did what is right, correct? I hope you are right....but I am skeptical. Also, you are quite sure that "the Bible" was uninspired and did *not* come from God. Which must mean that He either used some other method or that He never communes with humanity. Quite a powerful statement from a man who claims to be a Christian.In all seriousness, though....what Spook are you representing? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If Jesus was more than simply human while living here on Earth then the whole play is simply a worthless farce and con job. You are attempting to market an idea and ideology. Freedom of speech allows this, thank God. I get a little terse with you because you frame your arguments with personal jibes such as "Learn To Read" and "Have You Ever Read The Bible"? You are admittedly a master at framing arguments and steering them in the direction that *you* want them to go. But I wont let you get away with the argument that you are not selling anything. You are engaged in a full-on attack on Biblical Christianity. I see that in a larger context you are supporting the idea that Jesus was merely teaching reformed Judaism and that Paul came along and started a new religion which Biblical Christians continue to support to this very day. In a way, you are marketing the basic idea that the best Jews are those who live a secular life, do good at every opportunity (as their Rabbi Jesus taught) and don't bother getting to know God except by doing good deeds every day and living like Gods people. I charge you with selling the idea to everybody that essentially says:
Notice that I listened. I'm sampling your *product* as we speak, yet I likely will return it. Like Paul, I prefer marketing my own. Its good practice for Faith and I, though. Teaches us to learn to think and to read our Bible. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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