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Author | Topic: The Dark Mountain Project: Secularism Gets Sober | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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GDR writes: Well, as I said I hope and pray that you are right. I know you're sincere in that, but it would be far better if you'd do something that would actually help instead. The countryside were I live is littered with ancient churches, I have three in my tiny village. They would have cost poor people an enormous amount in time, effort and money over a millennium to build and maintain and in the process built rich, powerful and divisive institutions that held back the progress of society. If that effort had been put into building schools hospitals and our secular institutions for the good of the people instead of the worship of imaginary gods, our society would be in a far better state.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
quote: From this wilk site: History of hospitals - Wikipedia ...and it still happens all the time. Our small Anglican church provides about 50% of the funding for a home for young women in Uganda who would otherwise be in the street, we support a library in Ethiopia and a hospital in Kampala. We just had an event as a fund raiser for a seniors day program, the local hospital foundation and a local food bank. We had another fund raiser for the local humane society. Just what have any of your local secular outfits done lately?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: While it is true that much time, money and effort could be said to be wasted in the buildings, there are many people in life who have done much to bring about a better world who have been educated through the church. One such notable man of influence was Romano Guardini. He reflects: The countryside where I live is littered with ancient churches, I have three in my tiny village. They would have cost poor people an enormous amount in time, effort and money over a millennium to build and maintain and in the process built rich, powerful and divisive institutions that held back the progress of society.quote:...AZPaul3 would no doubt claim that the reason is obvious: God does not exist. This simplistic explanation has nothing to stand on apart from the modern rationale that evidence of absence equates to absence of evidence. Tangle writes: I believe that for some of us at least, (men such as Romano Guardini) the study and meditation of God as enriched their minds and led them into further sacred and secular studies both. One other point which I wish to address is your supposed indifference to even thinking about God. Philip Yancey expressed it this way:
If that effort had been put into building schools hospitals and our secular institutions for the good of the people instead of the worship of imaginary gods, our society would be in a far better state. Yancey writes: I marvel at a God who puts himself at our mercy, as it were, allowing himself to be quenched and grieved, and even forgotten. Reading the Old Testament convinces me that this human tendency-indifference taken to a lethal extreme-bothers God more than any other. Gracious to doubters and a pursuer of willful unbelievers, God finds himself stymied, and even enraged, by those who simply put him out of mind. God reacts like any spurned lover who finds his phone calls unreturned and his Valentines tossed aside unopened. (...)I used to jump out of bed as soon as I woke up. Now I lie there in the quiet and invite God into my day, not as a participant in my life or an item on a checklist but as the hub of all that will happen that day. I want God to become the central reality so that I am as aware of God as I am of my own moods and desires.Yancey, Philip. Reaching for the Invisible God (pp. 202-203). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. This central focus on God every day causes me to study a plethora of different things, many of them totally secular. (which you would argue is normal, of course) The Dark Mountain Project is basically secular and, as Theo pointed out, a bit New Age. It is insightful to a degree, however. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Our small Anglican church provides about 50% of the funding for a home for young women in Uganda who would otherwise be in the street, we support a library in Ethiopia and a hospital in Kampala. We just had an event as a fundraiser for a seniors day program, the local hospital foundation and a local food bank. We had another fundraiser for the local humane society. They probably pass out condoms to teenagers! On a serious note, I have seen evidence of the usefulness of secular organizations. I just am stymied how they feel that the church isnt as useful. I think they see us the way the Televangelists portray us as. (themselves) There is a lot of Christianity...likely the most useful of us....who remain out of the spotlight and unseen. Just what have any of your local secular outfits done lately?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Well, you seem to spout the same nonsensical theology. I think they see us the way the Televangelists portray us as.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8561 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
AZPaul3 would no doubt claim that the reason is obvious: God does not exist. Guilty as charged. Unless, of course, you can show otherwise.
This simplistic explanation has nothing to stand on apart from the modern rationale that evidence of absence equates to absence of evidence. Just like garden fairies, centaurs and humanist republicans. No evidence, no thing. Unless, of course, you can show otherwise. [looking at the third wall] There's that damn pesky evidence requirement again.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat quotes this pile of steaming dung and writes: I marvel at a God who puts himself at our mercy, as it were, allowing himself to be quenched and grieved, and even forgotten. Reading the Old Testament convinces me that this human tendency-indifference taken to a lethal extreme-bothers God more than any other. Gracious to doubters and a pursuer of willful unbelievers, God finds himself stymied, and even enraged, by those who simply put him out of mind. God reacts like any spurned lover who finds his phone calls unreturned and his Valentines tossed aside unopened. (...)I used to jump out of bed as soon as I woke up. Now I lie there in the quiet and invite God into my day, not as a participant in my life or an item on a checklist but as the hub of all that will happen that day. I want God to become the central reality so that I am as aware of God as I am of my own moods and desires. What is this Phat? This idiot thinks he knows how god feels. Do you not see what delirious garbage this is?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Theodoric was right--it is a New Age manifesto. What turns me off, but likely would mildly intrigue you all, is the idea that humanity is not central to the future, and that storytelling is the basic art.
DMP writes: THE EIGHT PRINCIPLES OF UNCIVILISATIONWe must unhumanize our views a little, and become confident As the rock and ocean that we were made from.’ Humans are not the point and purpose of the planet. Our art will begin with an attempt to step outside the human bubble. By careful attention, we will reengage with the non-human world. jar writes: Of course not. These things *must* happen. The solution is to love God and love your neighbor. I might add that knowing God is a priority, but you will be unable to understand this basic bit...unless perhaps you might believe that in knowing our neighbor, we thus know God. New Age mumbo jumbo is very close to the Christianity that I believe in, yet miles apart. Is there even a single example of Jesus or God preventing any disaster or social breakdown? You say Christianity is about what you do. (not what you believe) In that regard, the Dark Mountain New Agers likely would agree. They, like Stile, would eliminate knowing God as a necessary first step and would advocate sharing with each other and loving each other. I fear, however, that without the Holy Spirit it is destined to fail.
Are there not numerous examples of religious fervor causing disasters and social breakdowns? yes, many. My question would be how to tell apart a crowd based on obsessive fearful groupthink(authoritarianism) versus a crowd of individuals with no groupthink, varied beliefs, and a shared desire to simply bond with each other. The question is this: If a Holy Spirit exists and desires to commune with humans, which crowd would He,She, or It likely reside in?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Why should that bother you? You don't even believe that God exists. What is this Phat? This idiot thinks he knows how god feels. There is nothing wrong with people who believe in God and who struggle to understand Him. A wrong answer is better than no answer at all.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: Why should that bother you? You don't even believe that God exists. It bothers me that you think it's normal and ok for people to tell other people that they know what god thinks and feels. It's dumb, crazy and delusional stuff.
A wrong answer is better than no answer at all. That is just fucking stupid.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Of course not. These things *must* happen. The solution is to love God and love your neighbor. I might add that knowing God is a priority, but you will be unable to understand this basic bit...unless perhaps you might believe that in knowing our neighbor, we thus know God. First I'd need to know what even knowing your neighbor could possibly have to do with knowing God? But still no one has suggested anyway for anyone including themselves to know God or tell if they are communing with God.
Phat writes: You say Christianity is about what you do. (not what you believe) No Phat, I point out that in the Bible Jesus says following him is about what you do not what you believe. Stop misrepresenting what I say.
Phat writes: My question would be how to tell apart a crowd based on obsessive fearful groupthink(authoritarianism) versus a crowd of individuals with no groupthink, varied beliefs, and a shared desire to simply bond with each other. The question is this: If a Holy Spirit exists and desires to commune with humans, which crowd would He,She, or It likely reside in? More silly word salad. Sorry but that is all just nonsense. AbE:
Phat writes: A wrong answer is better than no answer at all. I'm sorry but you just laid a new really dumb brick there Bubba. That's truly silly. It is the classic mantra of the Snake Oil Salesmen. Edited by jar, : see AbE: Edited by jar, : created ----> laid
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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phat writes:
Sorry, no answer is better than a wrong answer anytime!
A wrong answer is better than no answer at all.
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