Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 73 (8962 total)
174 online now:
PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat) (2 members, 172 visitors)
Newest Member: Samuel567
Post Volume: Total: 871,028 Year: 2,776/23,288 Month: 967/1,809 Week: 86/313 Day: 3/39 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   An excellent Apologetics Lecture
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 25 (671204)
08-23-2012 6:50 AM


(Audio Only)

This man has intelligence and a persuasive argument regarding Christian belief.

Another good one:

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 09-03-2019 12:12 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 09-05-2019 3:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 25 (862268)
09-03-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-23-2012 6:50 AM


Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective
I wish I could have produced the transcript! I'm unconvinced that apologists are liars--in general. They simply have a different world view.

Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective Its a long podcast, but the part that I liked was from 1:05 on in for roughly ten minutes. Basically the caller (who is not as skilled at the debate as some of you) and co-host Andrew Rappaport had a rousing argument.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-23-2012 6:50 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ringo, posted 09-03-2019 12:16 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 25 (862272)
09-03-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ringo
09-03-2019 12:16 PM


Re: Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective
Basically, they were arguing the old idea that A God Who commands the slaughter of other nations is violating His own New Testament Laws of Loving Thy Enemy.

The counter-argument asked the rhetorical question of whether the allies had the moral high ground in the D-Day counter-invasion carried all the way to Berlin.

One side argues that God used a nation as His tool to punish the reprehensible behavior and actions of another nation.

The other side will(and does) argue that the book was written by humans and that God is but a concept of the human mind and that essentially humans define and are responsible for their own morality. But the question still remains.

Would YOU have advocated punishing Nazi Germany (and Imperial Japan) and Al-Queda? If not, why not?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ringo, posted 09-03-2019 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 09-03-2019 12:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 12:54 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 25 (862286)
09-03-2019 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
09-03-2019 4:13 PM


Children get their values from their parents.
Metaphorically, Adam & Eve grew up the day they chose to acquire knowledge beyond the safety of "home". Metaphorically, Israel also was a rebellious nation in regards to loving God. In this day and age, people not only balk at the idea of loving God...judging His apparent character and behavior with their own wisdom, but they cease worrying about Him altogether. You would claim society "grew up" from its old mythology. I would say we became rebellious and proud in our own eyes. thus why I predict tough times and further lessons for modern people to undergo. And no, I don't gleefully anticipate it. If there is any smirk at all on my face, (inappropriately, of course) it is that you will be shocked upon learning that you dismissed God and that it was a wrong move.

Of course, you allow for a polite nicely nice archetypical God to exist, as long as He doesnt stick His nose in human progress.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2019 4:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2019 4:40 PM Phat has responded
 Message 16 by jar, posted 09-04-2019 8:20 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 25 (862288)
09-03-2019 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
09-03-2019 12:54 PM


Re: Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective
It all boils down to who is good and who is bad and whether we can even agree on such a definition. One side would say that Gods people are the good guys---if they obey and listen to Dad. If they do what is right in their own eyes they are rebellious and bad. The argument even goes into the idea that Israel herself was punished--by pagan nations---for not listening to God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 12:54 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 25 (862290)
09-03-2019 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tangle
09-03-2019 4:40 PM


Claymation Nation
The potter can do what He wants with the clay. Where did the clay even get the idea that it was ok to argue? (a quickie answer...im on the way out the door to get to work )

Here is the answer from John Piper: (What do you think of his response?)

quote:
Why was it right for God to slaughter women and children in the Old Testament? How can that ever be right?

It's right for God to slaughter women and children anytime he pleases. God gives life and he takes life. Everybody who dies, dies because God wills that they die.

God is taking life every day. He will take 50,000 lives today. Life is in God's hand. God decides when your last heartbeat will be, and whether it ends through cancer or a bullet wound. God governs.

So God is God! He rules and governs everything. And everything he does is just and right and good. God owes us nothing.

If I were to drop dead right now, or a suicide bomber downstairs were to blow this building up and I were blown into smithereens, God would have done me no wrong. He does no wrong to anybody when he takes their life, whether at 2 weeks or at age 92.

God is not beholden to us at all. He doesn't owe us anything.

Now add to that the fact we're all sinners and deserve to die and go to hell yesterday, and the reality that we're even breathing today is sheer common grace from God.

I could make the question harder. As it was stated, it doesn't feel hard to me, because God was stated as the actor.

My basic answer is that the Old and New Testaments present God as the one who has total rights over my life and over my death.

"The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). How he takes away is his call. He never wrongs anybody.

How would you state it to make the question harder?

The part that makes it harder is that he commands people to do it. He commanded Joshua to slaughter people, okay? You've got human beings killing humans, and therefore a moral question of what is right to do.

The Bible says, "Thou shalt not murder," yet God says to Joshua, "Go in and clean house, and don't leave anything breathing! Don't leave a donkey, child, woman, old man or old woman breathing. Wipeout Jericho."

My answer to that is that there is a point in history, a season in history, where God is the immediate king of a people, Israel, different than the way he is the king over the church, which is from all the peoples of Israel and does not have a political, ethnic dimension to it.

With Joshua there was a political, ethnic dimension, God was immediate king, and he uses this people as his instrument to accomplish his judgment in the world at that time. And God, it says, let the sins of the Amorites accumulate for 400 years so that they would be full (Genesis 15:16), and then sends his own people in as instruments of judgment.

So I would vindicate Joshua by saying that in that setting, with that relationship between God and his people, it was right for Joshua to do what God told him to do, which was to annihilate the people.

But that's much more complex morally than saying that God does it. He can cause a flood and kill everybody on the planet except 8 people and not do a single one of them any wrong. But he didn't ask anybody else to do that. It gets difficult when he uses others.

An example of this right now is that God has given the sword to the government (Romans 13:4). Therefore I believe the government has a right to take a rapist and a murderer and to put him in jail. Or to kill him.

I think capital punishment is consistent with Genesis 9 and consistent with God's character, because of the value of man: "The blood of a man shall be shed for taking the blood of a man" (Genesis 9:6) But that's very different than saying that anybody can go around killing people.

So God has his times and seasons for when he shares his authority to take and give life. And the church today is not Israel, and we are not a political entity. Therefore the word we have from the Lord today is, "Love your enemy. Pray for those who abuse you. Lay your life down for the world. Don't kill in order to spread the gospel, but die to spread it."


Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2019 4:40 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 4:50 PM Phat has responded
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2019 2:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 25 (862292)
09-03-2019 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
09-03-2019 4:50 PM


Re: Claymation Nation
So was it right what the allies did to Nazi Germany? Was it right what was done to Al-Queda?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 4:50 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 5:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 25 (862358)
09-04-2019 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
09-04-2019 8:20 AM


Revisionist History and Evidence
Interesting. According to Wiki,
According to the Hebrew Bible, the kingdom of Judah resulted from the break-up of the United Kingdom of Israel (1020 to about 930 BCE) after the northern tribes refused to accept Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, as their king.
It would be as if the US split up, one side preferring a secular democracy and the other side preferring a Theocratic Republic.
jar writes:

Two Jewish Proto-States with entirely different ideas of what God was and what God wanted.

Its a bit like you now...teaching that God is ultimately a product of the human mind. Did anyone teach that heresey then?

Learn to actually read what is written in the Bible stories and ignore what the Snake-oil Salesmen claim should have been written.
Not all apologists are snake-oil salesmen. They simply have a different idea(and belief) as to who God is.

The Old Testament is filled with actual information if you will read it honestly.

It begins with two entirely different Gods that reflect how the people of two different eras imagined God.

See? This confirms it. You dont see God as actually existing as much as you see God (and Jesus) as products of our culture.
Understand the evolution and changes both in what God was imagined to be but also the evolution and changes in society over time. If you look you will see that it all starts with a band of peoples who worship different deities that over time evolve into separate and often fighting tribes that then combine into the beginnings of statehood but into dramatically different directions, one a Theocracy and the other form a Monarchy.
Sounds logical, but I reject your ideology. You, like Stile, base everything on logic, reason, and what you claim to be reality. Your guns dont protect society any more than do your words.

Look at the Gods that are created. The God of Exodus can never be described as moral. The God of Genesis 1 is amoral and totally uninvolved beyond the initial act of creation; the potter who creates a vase then walks away from it never looking back. The God of Genesis 2&3 is very human; fearful, capricious, not totally honest but also forgiving and involved.
So you always claim. Many people who have read the Bible conclude differently than you do. Perhaps the biggest reason you never got saved is that your Mama taught you that it is a copout. And I can see why many current Christian cults confirm your decision as the right one. (By their atrocious behavior) Apparently Stile believes as you taught us to believe: GOD is forever unknowable. Throw Him away.

And to be fair, I see great hypocrisy in many apologists. I studied Matt Slick as he debated Matt Dillahunty. Dillahunty is much more preferable of a teacher despite the fact that he is an atheist. Slick is pompous, overbearing, and full of hot air. And I know that you will again accuse me of misrepresenting you as if you are the Lord and Master of framing the issue. Tell me now where I am wrong. I await your response breathlessly and full of anticipation.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 09-04-2019 8:20 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 09-04-2019 11:52 AM Phat has responded
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-04-2019 3:07 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 25 (862420)
09-05-2019 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
09-04-2019 11:52 AM


No Apologies
ringo writes:

Just about every religion teaches that the other guy's god is made up. You believe that Zeus and Thor are made up, don't you?

True, though I would use the appeal to popularity as my (only) valid defense. It would be easy, of course, to defend my belief based on the seriousness with which I initially experienced it (conversion) but all that I have to offer is at best subjective. Many, many similar stories exist from others, however. Moreover, I would argue that many of the other gods are not made up---they are actual demons disguised as God. Critics will argue that modern mythos is similar in regard to various deities...Zeus himself was a Demiurge, according to Wikipedia. Greek philosophy was quite precise in tying the gods into the human progression of thought. And I can see the argument...I just don't agree with it for obvious reasons.

jar may claim that the evidence shows that the God(s) of the Bible were themselves human constructs...in that, we have no way of showing the evidence of GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen nor of His Son, (His character) anthropomorphized as human. Another reasonable argument, yet one rejected by most who claim to be believers. Hence again the appeal to popularity. Whether God exists outside the human mind, which I believe He does or is simply a product of the human mind individually and collectively will likely never be objectively proven. Unless such a Creator wanted it known at some point.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 09-04-2019 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 09-05-2019 12:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 25 (862425)
09-05-2019 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
09-04-2019 3:07 PM


Re: Revisionist History and Evidence
jar writes:

And getting saved is just another utterly made up snake-oil.

Then how come I changed and became aware of a profound inner awareness when I allegedly "got saved"? And why do many others report the same change? Mass hypnosis??
NO ONE knows whether or not they are or will be saved until after they are dead and judged.
So? No one knows whether or not God exists until after they die, if then. But belief is strong in many. Their works prove their seriousness and commitment.
jar writes:

But the conmen love selling SALVATION.

How much of the church do you see as P.T.Barnumesque? Do you, like ringo, say that all apologists are snake-oil hucksters? Why would you be so skeptical of so many people? Seems all of the Clubs in Christianity are dishonest *except* yours.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-04-2019 3:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2019 5:30 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 23 by jar, posted 09-05-2019 8:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020