Phat writes:
Then how come I changed and became aware of a profound inner awareness when I allegedly "got saved"? And why do many others report the same change? Mass hypnosis??
Tangle covered that just above.
Phat writes:
So? No one knows whether or not God exists until after they die, if then. But belief is strong in many. Their works prove their seriousness and commitment.
LOL. What works Phat? That's the problem. What works differentiate a "Christian Believer" from the rest of the general population or a "Muslim Believer"?
Phat writes:
How much of the church do you see as P.T.Barnumesque? Do you, like ringo, say that all apologists are snake-oil hucksters? Why would you be so skeptical of so many people? Seems all of the Clubs in Christianity are dishonest *except* yours.
Apologists are not Christianity. Apologists claims should be tested just as the products of any other salesman or for that matter anything I post.
If you test what the apologists say against what is actually written it shows an almost universal trait of quote mining, taking things out of context, misrepresentation and misdirection at best. In far too many cases what is shown is just plain outright deceit.
For a decade an a half now you and I have been holding the same conversation.
Does the apologist tell you to doubt what he is saying and to go test what he is saying against the evidence?
Do I tell you to doubt what I am saying and to go test what I am saying against the evidence?
What does the evidence show?
And there are apologist that are part of the same chapter of Club Christian as me; NT Wright is one. Do I agree with everything NT Wright publishes or pronounces? Nope. Do I think he is a snake-oil salesman? Jury is out BUT at least NT Wright tells folk to check the evidence and to look at the evidence through the eyes of that era, location and mythos.