An excellent Apologetics Lecture

Phat writes: Metaphorically, Israel also was a rebellious nation in regards to loving God.

History Phat. History. Forget the Dogma and look at the facts.

Israel was rebellious in the eyes of Judah. Two Jewish Proto-States with entirely different ideas of what God was and what God wanted.

Learn to actually read what is written in the Bible stories and ignore what the Snake-oil Salesmen claim should have been written.

The Old Testament is filled with actual information if you will read it honestly.

It begins with two entirely different Gods that reflect how the people of two different eras imagined God. Understand the evolution and changes both in what God was imagined to be but also the evolution and changes in the society over time. If you look you will see that it all starts with a band of peoples who worship different deities that over time evolve into separate and often fighting tribes that then combine into the beginnings of statehood but in to dramatically different directions, one a Theocracy and the other form a Monarchy.

Look at the Gods that are created. The God of Exodus can never be described as moral. The God of Genesis 1 is ammoral and totally uninvolved beyond the initial act of creation; the potter who creates a vase then walks away from it never looking back. The God of Genesis 2&3 is very human; fearful, capricious, not totally honest but also forgiving and involved.

Read the Bible and pay attention to what is actually written instead of the wonders claimed to be in the bottle.

Edited by jar, : what is teh

Interesting. According to Wiki,

According to the Hebrew Bible, the kingdom of Judah resulted from the break-up of the United Kingdom of Israel (1020 to about 930 BCE) after the northern tribes refused to accept Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, as their king.

It would be as if the US split up, one side preferring a secular democracy and the other side preferring a Theocratic Republic.

jar writes: Two Jewish Proto-States with entirely different ideas of what God was and what God wanted.

Its a bit like you now...teaching that God is ultimately a product of the human mind. Did anyone teach that heresey then?

Learn to actually read what is written in the Bible stories and ignore what the Snake-oil Salesmen claim should have been written.

Not all apologists are snake-oil salesmen. They simply have a different idea(and belief) as to who God is.

The Old Testament is filled with actual information if you will read it honestly. It begins with two entirely different Gods that reflect how the people of two different eras imagined God.

See? This confirms it. You dont see God as actually existing as much as you see God (and Jesus) as products of our culture.

Understand the evolution and changes both in what God was imagined to be but also the evolution and changes in society over time. If you look you will see that it all starts with a band of peoples who worship different deities that over time evolve into separate and often fighting tribes that then combine into the beginnings of statehood but into dramatically different directions, one a Theocracy and the other form a Monarchy.

Sounds logical, but I reject your ideology. You, like Stile, base everything on logic, reason, and what you claim to be reality. Your guns dont protect society any more than do your words.

Look at the Gods that are created. The God of Exodus can never be described as moral. The God of Genesis 1 is amoral and totally uninvolved beyond the initial act of creation; the potter who creates a vase then walks away from it never looking back. The God of Genesis 2&3 is very human; fearful, capricious, not totally honest but also forgiving and involved.

So you always claim. Many people who have read the Bible conclude differently than you do. Perhaps the biggest reason you never got saved is that your Mama taught you that it is a copout. And I can see why many current Christian cults confirm your decision as the right one. (By their atrocious behavior) Apparently Stile believes as you taught us to believe: GOD is forever unknowable. Throw Him away.

And to be fair, I see great hypocrisy in many apologists. I studied Matt Slick as he debated Matt Dillahunty. Dillahunty is much more preferable of a teacher despite the fact that he is an atheist. Slick is pompous, overbearing, and full of hot air. And I know that you will again accuse me of misrepresenting you as if you are the Lord and Master of framing the issue. Tell me now where I am wrong. I await your response breathlessly and full of anticipation.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Phat writes: ...teaching that God is ultimately a product of the human mind. Did anyone teach that heresey then?

Just about every religion teaches that the other guy's god is made up. You beleve that Zeus and Thor are made up, don't you?

Phat writes: Not all apologists are snake-oil salesmen.

Still waiting for you to show us one who isn't.

Phat writes: Its a bit like you now...teaching that God is ultimately a product of the human mind. Did anyone teach that heresey then?

Did the authors at the time write what is included in the stories? If so, they wrote about the God they imagined.

Phat writes: See? This confirms it. You dont see God as actually existing as much as you see God (and Jesus) as products of our culture.

No Phat, stop saying really stupid shit. I see what the authors of the time wrote. I am not talking about our culture but what the authors wrote.

Phat writes: Sounds logical, but I reject your ideology. You, like Stile, base everything on logic, reason, and what you claim to be reality. Your guns dont protect society any more than do your words.

Stop saying shit Phat. My guns are not meant to protect society. Read what was actually written. It's called the Bible Phat and it is actually there so you can read it.

Phat writes: So you always claim. Many people who have read the Bible conclude differently than you do. Perhaps the biggest reason you never got saved is that your Mama taught you that it is a copout. And I can see why many current Christian cults confirm your decision as the right one. (By their atrocious behavior) Apparently Stile believes as you taught us to believe: GOD is forever unknowable. Throw Him away. And to be fair, I see great hypocrisy in many apologists. I studied Matt Slick as he debated Matt Dillahunty. Dillahunty is much more preferable of a teacher despite the fact that he is an atheist. Slick is pompous, overbearing, and full of hot air. And I know that you will again accuse me of misrepresenting you as if you are the Lord and Master of framing the issue. Tell me now where I am wrong. I await your response breathlessly and full of anticipation.

My answer is as always the same; instead of just accepting what the Apologists market, read what is actually written.

And getting saved is just another utterly made up snake-oil. NO ONE knows whether or not they are or will be saved until after they are dead and judged. But the conmen love selling SALVATION. It's profitable and carries no product liability risk.

ringo writes: Just about every religion teaches that the other guy's god is made up. You believe that Zeus and Thor are made up, don't you?

True, though I would use the appeal to popularity as my (only) valid defense. It would be easy, of course, to defend my belief based on the seriousness with which I initially experienced it (conversion) but all that I have to offer is at best subjective. Many, many similar stories exist from others, however. Moreover, I would argue that many of the other gods are not made up---they are actual demons disguised as God. Critics will argue that modern mythos is similar in regard to various deities...Zeus himself was a Demiurge, according to Wikipedia. Greek philosophy was quite precise in tying the gods into the human progression of thought. And I can see the argument...I just don't agree with it for obvious reasons.

jar may claim that the evidence shows that the God(s) of the Bible were themselves human constructs...in that, we have no way of showing the evidence of GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen nor of His Son, (His character) anthropomorphized as human. Another reasonable argument, yet one rejected by most who claim to be believers. Hence again the appeal to popularity. Whether God exists outside the human mind, which I believe He does or is simply a product of the human mind individually and collectively will likely never be objectively proven. Unless such a Creator wanted it known at some point.

jar writes: And getting saved is just another utterly made up snake-oil.

Then how come I changed and became aware of a profound inner awareness when I allegedly "got saved"? And why do many others report the same change? Mass hypnosis??

NO ONE knows whether or not they are or will be saved until after they are dead and judged.

So? No one knows whether or not God exists until after they die, if then. But belief is strong in many. Their works prove their seriousness and commitment.

jar writes: But the conmen love selling SALVATION.

How much of the church do you see as P.T.Barnumesque? Do you, like ringo, say that all apologists are snake-oil hucksters? Why would you be so skeptical of so many people? Seems all of the Clubs in Christianity are dishonest *except* yours.

Phat writes: Then how come I changed and became aware of a profound inner awareness when I allegedly "got saved"? And why do many others report the same change?

How come there are so many suicide bombers? How come there are so many mental illnesses? How come there are so many crazy sects willing to think and believe all sorts of batshit crazy things? How come Mormons, Scientologists, dowsers, Hindus, astrologers?

It's your mind Phat, it can do powerful things to you. Do voluntary work in a mental hospital for a few months - you'll see that people can sincerely believe absolutely anything. Nothing can change a Napoleon of Jesus's mind that they're delusional.

Mass hypnosis??

No, just the way our brains are wired. You would not believe what you believe now had you been born to Hindu parents. We learn beliefs, we are programmed to believe them - some peoplemore than others.

Phat writes: Then how come I changed and became aware of a profound inner awareness when I allegedly "got saved"? And why do many others report the same change? Mass hypnosis??

Tangle covered that just above.

Phat writes: So? No one knows whether or not God exists until after they die, if then. But belief is strong in many. Their works prove their seriousness and commitment.

LOL. What works Phat? That's the problem. What works differentiate a "Christian Believer" from the rest of the general population or a "Muslim Believer"?

Phat writes: How much of the church do you see as P.T.Barnumesque? Do you, like ringo, say that all apologists are snake-oil hucksters? Why would you be so skeptical of so many people? Seems all of the Clubs in Christianity are ********* *except* yours.

Apologists are not Christianity. Apologists claims should be tested just as the products of any other salesman or for that matter anything I post.

If you test what the apologists say against what is actually written it shows an almost universal trait of quote mining, taking things out of context, misrepresentation and misdirection at best. In far too many cases what is shown is just plain outright deceit.

For a decade an a half now you and I have been holding the same conversation.

Does the apologist tell you to doubt what he is saying and to go test what he is saying against the evidence?

Do I tell you to doubt what I am saying and to go test what I am saying against the evidence?

What does the evidence show?

And there are apologist that are part of the same chapter of Club Christian as me; NT Wright is one. Do I agree with everything NT Wright publishes or pronounces? Nope. Do I think he is a snake-oil salesman? Jury is out BUT at least NT Wright tells folk to check the evidence and to look at the evidence through the eyes of that era, location and mythos.

Phat writes: True, though I would use the appeal to popularity as my (only) valid defense.

Then Islam, Roman Catholicism and Hinduism would all win out over Protestantism.

Phat writes: Moreover, I would argue that many of the other gods are not made up---they are actual demons disguised as God.

That doen't help you. They could say the same about your God - and the claim would be supported by your own scriptures.

It’s funny how you haven’t produced anything at all good from any of these videos or podcasts.

If they had any good points why not discuss them ?