Summations Only

Faith, I understand that you hate it that people are allowed to tell the truth about Trump. And I know you’d love a brutal dictatorship.It just proves that the Right are the ones who want to hate, and want to destroy, America.

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What hurts is that it's the Left that's going to foist a brutal dictatorship on us and will do it by blaming us for it.

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Which, of course, is an attempt to blame the Left because you want to foist a brutal dictatorship on America. You want to prosecute people for daring to truthfully criticise Trump - that is all the proof we need.

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Trump doesn't have a dictatorial bone in his body.

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Which is why he complains that the media aren’t Trump propaganda outlets, complains bitterly when the Republican Congress doesn’t do what he wants, complains bitterly that judges take the side of the law...

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The Left are the haters and call us that, the Left are the racists and call us that.

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Says the hater who defends racists.

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This is the saddest time in American history. God must have abandoned us for sure.

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I guess that explains how Trump won the election, then.

An obviously dishonest attempt to overturn a democratic election. At least the Left has not sunk to that level in their opposition to Trump.

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All of it lies. Which it wasn't in the case of Obama.

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And that is the opposite of the truth. It’s the campaign against Obama that was all lies.

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Nobody would bother making up something like his birthplace in Kenya, it would be too easy to check out, it was entirely because there was evidence for it.

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It’s an obvious choice and it has been checked out - and failed to meet the mark. And why would Hawaii be any harder to check out? The better evidence - the newspaper announcement and the birth certificate - are there. And, as we shall see the people who raised it aren’t big in checking and caring about the facts.

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His grandmother knew and said so but someone "reminded" her that she shouldn't admit to it.

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That is only your opinion.

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And all the ways this subject is dealt with add to the evidence. Oh she was really talking about the birth of her son. Give me a break, the woman is no idiot, she knows nobody wants to know about the birth of her son. Oh she didn't know what she was saying, oh it was a language problem, a translation problem.. All imply the grandmother wouldn't have known that it was her world-famous grandson that was being talked about. All this maneuvering is a tacit admissions that it was obvious that she had said he was born in Kenya so all this is a big scramble to rationalize it away, and the rationalizations are unbelievably transparent.

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But of course people do want to know about the father. She’s a more natural person to ask about the father, her son, rather than the grandson. You don’t even know exactly what she was asked, since she does not speak English. And even you insist that she made a mistake - why should she not mistake the question? Why should she not think it is about the birth of her son rather than the birth of a grandson thousands of miles away ?The flimsy piece of evidence you have may be reasonably interpreted in other ways. That isn’t evidence you’re right. That’s the obvious rationalisation here.

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And then we get the next layer of deception: EVEN IF HE WAS BORN IN KENYA (oh really?) it wouldn't have been unconstitutional (then why make such a big deal out of denying it?), or what about Ted Cruz?. That one is a real red flag, practically an admission that you now that Obama was born in Kenya, if you want to make an issue of another candidate's similar circumstances.

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Of course it isn’t. It might be if it was raised instead of dealing with the evidence, but it isn’t. It’s just proof of how little the people who raise the claim care about the facts. There’s a solid case that an important Republican candidate would be disqualified by their erroneous standards? They don’t care.

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All these excuses and changes of subject are evidence in themselves that the evidence is strong for a Kenyan birth place.

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Now there is a truly pathetic excuse. If you had strong evidence you would be talking about that. Instead you try to infer it from the fact that people are making broader points as well as answering your claims.

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And I recall the birth certificate having something obviously wrong with it, something like different kinds of typing on it or an odd way the name was written or something like that. My own certificate has very consistent wording and typing, but his doesn't.

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Show us. And show us genuine birth certificates from Hawaii from the same time. Different States do do things differently, and even the same State may do things differently over time.

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My guess would be that someone made a choice not to pursue the evidence and just let the deception stand.

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It would be the people making the claims of deception that would be doing that. Why would they refuse to pursue their claims ?

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Snopes is left wing.

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I.e. they tell the truth.

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I looked carefully at the birth certificate and decided on the basis of what's on it that it was a forgery, so you can't get away with accusing me of deciding that in advance.

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And you don’t.

Oh look, here’s a segregationist refusing to host a mixed race wedding because it’s against their Christian faith (BBC}Note that this is not a Church, just a venue.Fortunately they’ve walked back on it, but it is clear that segregationist teaching is still having an influence.

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The postman knew it was outside the Ayers' house where he had the conversation with the "foreign student" who had been identified as a foreign student by Mrs. Ayers.

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Obama wasn’t a foreign student. That’s one of the reasons we know it wasn’t him.

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So if the school records are available we should be able to have the information about his student status.

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Why on earth would we need that when Obama is an American citizen, who’d graduated from an American high school and continued his education in American Universities?

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Perhaps you and PaulK and AZPaul and dwise could get jobs with Putin, or the Chinese Communists. Good work of attacking the raiser of inconvenient questions.

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A standard Faith response. Innuendo and lies.Pointing out the obvious fact that there is no way that Obama would be considered a foreign student is not an attack, nor are your insinuations against Obama inconvenient questionsYou’re not a pawn of the fascists and racists who want to institute a murderous dictatorship in America, you’re their willing ally.Because the State murder of Obama is what it is all about and what you really want

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You merely asserted all that without any reason for it, in the teeth of my reasoning.

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And that is an outright lie. You presented no reasoning to explain why Obama would be considered a foreign student while I pointed out that he was an American citizen who had been in the American educational system from high school.

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Sorry, my reasoning stands, along with the facts that support it.

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The facts on your side are appallingly weak evidence. You have a decades after the fact identification, the date of the meeting is unknown, there is no independent evidence that Obama knew the Ayers as a student and no sensible reason for Ayers to call Obama a foreign student at all. It makes far less sense than Obama’s mother talking about her son’s birth.

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The postman said Mrs. Ayers told him they had a "foreign student" living with them. He knew he was talking to that student.

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Which is very good evidence that it wasn’t Obama.

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The grandmother's first statement on the phone and the Postman's memory are the best evidence.

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Neither of which are at all good.The postman’s memory is especially bad. You need Obama somehow to be a foreign student, but it’s secret, but Mary Ayers goes and blabs it to a postman. None of which makes the least bit of sense. Even Obama visiting the Ayers as a student makes little sense - there is no other evidence of any association while he was a student, and even if you assume that there was a secret association why the public visit ?A far more likely explanation is that the postman’s identification - made long after the meeting - was mistaken. Indeed, he could easily have been mistaken about Mary Ayer’s saying that the man was a foreign student. Either error sinks your case, and both errors are entirely plausible - which is more than can be said for your ideas.That you put this forward as the best evidence just shows how crazy this birther nonsense really is.

There is no strained attempt to rationalise away anything.It is a fact that Obama is and was an American citizen.It is a fact that Obama graduated from an American high school.It is a fact that Obama attended an American college.How then, could he be a foreign student ?That alone sinks your argument completely, before we get onto all the other implausibilities.

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That's nothing but a bunch of assertions for which you offer no evidence at all, though little of it conflicts with the idea that he was a foreign student anyway.

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All of them are easily checked and all of them are evidence that he was not a foreign student. Nobody denies that Obama’s mother was an American citizen, which is all he needs to be a citizen himself.

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The idea that the postman misremembered being told he was a "foreign student" is just plain ludicrous.

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Even if that were my primary argument it is in fact quite plausible. The student had a foreign-sounding name so the postman may have assumed he was foreign, read that into whatever Mary Ayers said and - years later - assumed that Mary Ayers actually said it.However, my primary argument is that the student wasn’t Obama. Mistaken identity is a real possibility - especially when there are decades between the encounter and the identification.

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The reason he remembered it so well is that the student told him he was going to become US President

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As I remember it the postman simply reported that the student said he intended to be president - not specifying the US. But even if he did that wouldn’t make the postman’s memory infallible.

There are many reasons. Here are three good ones.A concern for the truth.Because the lies are meant to encourage the racists and xenophobia on the right.Because it demonstrates that the Right’s reaction to Obama’s election is crazier than the Left’s reaction to Trump.

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The Left's imputation of motivations to the Right is forever wrong and incendiary

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If that were true then honesty would be the best answer. Telling obvious falsehoods to try to prop up a debunked claim is naturally going to raise suspicions.

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I have no motivation whatever except having been convinced that he was in fact born in Kenya, which is furthered by the Left's crazy ways of responding to the idea

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No. You weren’t convinced by the evidence, since you have none worth speaking of. And the Left’s response is entirely sensible. As a particularly glaring example you construct a bizarre conspiracy theory about the mailman’s story rather than accept the simple possibility that the mailman was mistaken.Indeed it seems that you think that telling the truth is insane.

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If there is any other kind of motivation, having to do with objections to Obama, it's not racial, it's ideologica

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Whatever your own motives, it would be foolish to deny that there are racists on the Right and particularly among the Birthers.

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But even that has nothing to do with why I believe he was born in Kenya.

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Sure. It’s because you think nothing of lying to bring down a democratically elected president. You love it.