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Author Topic:   Conservative Racism
Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 841 of 919 (862527)
09-06-2019 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 840 by PaulK
09-06-2019 12:21 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
It's your strained attempt to rationalize it away I find suspect of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 840 by PaulK, posted 09-06-2019 12:21 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 842 by PaulK, posted 09-06-2019 4:14 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 842 of 919 (862528)
09-06-2019 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 841 by Faith
09-06-2019 3:32 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
There is no “strained attempt to rationalise away” anything.

It is a fact that Obama is and was an American citizen.

It is a fact that Obama graduated from an American high school.

It is a fact that Obama attended an American college.

How then, could he be a “foreign student” ?

That alone sinks your argument completely, before we get onto all the other implausibilities.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 3:32 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 843 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 4:17 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 843 of 919 (862529)
09-06-2019 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 842 by PaulK
09-06-2019 4:14 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
That's nothing but a bunch of assertions for which you offer no evidence at all, though little of it conflicts with the idea that he was a foreign student anyway.

The idea that the postman misremembered being told he was a "foreign student" is just plain ludicrous. The reason he remembered it so well is that the student told him he was going to become US President.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 842 by PaulK, posted 09-06-2019 4:14 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 844 by PaulK, posted 09-06-2019 4:29 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 846 by JonF, posted 09-06-2019 9:30 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 849 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-16-2019 10:45 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 844 of 919 (862530)
09-06-2019 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 843 by Faith
09-06-2019 4:17 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
quote:
That's nothing but a bunch of assertions for which you offer no evidence at all, though little of it conflicts with the idea that he was a foreign student anyway.

All of them are easily checked and all of them are evidence that he was not a foreign student. Nobody denies that Obama’s mother was an American citizen, which is all he needs to be a citizen himself.

quote:
The idea that the postman misremembered being told he was a "foreign student" is just plain ludicrous.

Even if that were my primary argument it is in fact quite plausible. The student had a foreign-sounding name so the postman may have assumed he was foreign, read that into whatever Mary Ayers said and - years later - assumed that Mary Ayers actually said it.

However, my primary argument is that the student wasn’t Obama. Mistaken identity is a real possibility - especially when there are decades between the encounter and the identification.

quote:
The reason he remembered it so well is that the student told him he was going to become US President

As I remember it the postman simply reported that the student said he intended to be president - not specifying the US. But even if he did that wouldn’t make the postman’s memory infallible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 4:17 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 845 of 919 (862533)
09-06-2019 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 835 by Faith
09-05-2019 8:24 PM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
never saw any Kenyan birth certificate. I remember a Hawaiian birth certificate that was different from the one shown in this thread.

Irreleavnt unless you can produce the document.

THe document postedd here is the one and only official birth certificate. It proves you are wrong.

The grandmother's first statement on the phone and the Postman's memory are the best evidence.

They are indeed the best evidence you've got. They are also extremely weak circumstantial evidence.

The birth certificate rules.

I note you have no comment on the fact you've announced you wouldn't believe Obama's school records if they disproved your claim. Or on the fact you threw in several irrrelevant and scurrilous lies as "evidence".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 835 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 8:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 858 by Taq, posted 09-17-2019 11:21 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 846 of 919 (862535)
09-06-2019 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 843 by Faith
09-06-2019 4:17 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
That's nothing but a bunch of assertions for which you offer no evidence at all,

The birth certificate. Probative.

The idea that the postman misremembered being told he was a "foreign student" is just plain ludicrous

Who claimed that? Not PaulK.

The reason he remembered it so well is that the student told him he was going to become US President

Yeah, nobody but Obama dreamed of becoming President. And of course Obama wouldn't know that he (in your fantasy world) would be ineligible.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 4:17 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 847 of 919 (862536)
09-06-2019 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 838 by Faith
09-05-2019 9:17 PM


Re: the birth certificates
I find there was an official short form birth certificate released on 2008. It has less information than the long form. It's also the only kind Hawaii has issued for some time.

So there are actually two official birth certificates, which agree.

Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories

Here's another fake Kenyan certificate:


One of the several red flags in this one is that Mombasa is a thousand miles away from there Obama's family lived and still live. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/kenyan-mistake/

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by Faith, posted 09-05-2019 9:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6592
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 848 of 919 (862539)
09-06-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 847 by JonF
09-06-2019 9:49 AM


Re: the birth certificates
The Hawaii birth certificate is similar to the formats almost all birth certificates are in now days. All the info is in databases. The clerk pushes a button and this is what spits out.
In a lot of places in the USA, there is no "long form" birth certificate available.
Ignorant people have claimed that Obama never supplied an original birth certificate. There is no such thing as an original. In WI birth certificates come with the heading "Original Certificate of Live Birth". I have 5 copies of my sons. So the document is not an original in the idea that there is one original.
Also, since my son is adopted there is probably an earlier birth certificate that has a different name for him and different parents. This whole thing was created by racist people that were and are too stupid to understand how the process even works. And too stupid to understand what the Constitution and law actually says. Even if Barack Obama was not born in a US territory he would still have been eligible to run for President.
I have never seen a legitimate argument to counter that.

quote:
just three years after the drafting of the Constitution, the First Congress established that children born abroad to U.S. citizens were U.S. citizens at birth, and explicitly recognized that such children were “natural born Citizens.” The Naturalization Act of 1790 provided that “the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States . . . .” The actions and understandings of the First Congress are particularly persuasive because so many of the Framers of the Constitution were also members of the First Congress. That is particularly true in this instance, as eight of the eleven members of the committee that proposed the natural born eligibility requirement to the Convention served in the First Congress and none objected to a definition of “natural born Citizen” that included persons born abroad to citizen parents

https://harvardlawreview.org/...ning-of-natural-born-citizen

Isn't it funny how Constitutional originalists don't follow that interpretation when it does not agree with their prejudices.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by JonF, posted 09-06-2019 9:49 AM JonF has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16104
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 849 of 919 (862914)
09-16-2019 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 843 by Faith
09-06-2019 4:17 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
Faith writes:

The idea that the postman misremembered being told he was a "foreign student" is just plain ludicrous. The reason he remembered it so well is that the student told him he was going to become US President.

I see you have remained unable to think, learn, or grow. I'll just post this again.

Dr Adequate writes:

It occurred to me, looking over this mailman thing ...

In the early 1990s, I spoke with Mary Ayers who told me she was impressed with a foreign, black student. I do not recall from what country she said he was. I recall that the student had an unusual, foreign sounding name.

If this was Obama, why in the world would she call him a foreign student? Remember, the birther nonsense depends on the legally dubious proposition that although Obama is certainly a citizen by virtue of being his mother's son, being born in Kenya would make him not "natural born". But either way, he was born an American. Moreover, the earliest date he could have been at the Ayers house was 1989. At that point it had been 14 years, half his life, since his return to America, and he had of course been raised by his American mother prior to that. My point being that he wasn't going around saying "Me gonna be big fella President, ooga booga."

So, it would be kind of weird for Ayers to call him a foreign student, since he was an American citizen by birth who spoke, dressed, and behaved exactly like any other American. But for the Birther interpretation to bear any weight, we have to believe not only that she called him "foreign" but that when she did so she meant exactly that he was born abroad, no more and no less.

'Cos if she meant any less than that (e.g. that he'd spent much of his youth overseas, or had a foreign father, or a vestige of an Indonesian accent) it would be no use to Birthers, and if she meant any more than that (e.g. that he wasn't a citizen) then she'd just be making a silly mistake which would be no more evidential than if she'd called him a horse. Therefore, for Birther purposes, she had to know the exact circumstances of Obama's birth and citizenship and then she had to use "foreign" exactly in the sense of "a person who is an American citizen by birth and who spent most of his life in America and appears to be a totally normal American, but happened to be born overseas."

But no-one ever does use the word in that sense. That is not a sense that it has. For example, John McCain was born in Panama, a fact that is known to millions of people, and yet a google search on the phrases "John McCain is foreign" and "John McCain is a foreigner" shows that no-one on the entire Internet has ever said either of those things. I am the first, and I'm explaining how dumb it would be.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 843 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 4:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 09-17-2019 12:40 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 850 of 919 (862915)
09-17-2019 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 849 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2019 10:45 PM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
Why is so much energy expended on proving he wasn't born in Kenya if it doesn't matter?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 849 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-16-2019 10:45 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 851 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2019 1:16 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 852 by dwise1, posted 09-17-2019 1:16 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 853 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2019 2:04 AM Faith has responded
 Message 854 by Theodoric, posted 09-17-2019 8:49 AM Faith has responded
 Message 860 by Taq, posted 09-17-2019 11:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(4)
Message 851 of 919 (862916)
09-17-2019 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 850 by Faith
09-17-2019 12:40 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
There are many reasons. Here are three good ones.

A concern for the truth.

Because the lies are meant to encourage the racists and xenophobia on the right.

Because it demonstrates that the Right’s reaction to Obama’s election is crazier than the Left’s reaction to Trump.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 09-17-2019 12:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3712
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 852 of 919 (862917)
09-17-2019 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 850 by Faith
09-17-2019 12:40 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
Why is so much energy expended on proving he wasn't born in Kenya if it doesn't matter?

Because it's a fecking liie that is meant to deceive ignurant and stiupid people, who are the only ones who would fall for such a stiupid liie. It's of the same class as typical creationist lyes, which is why you fail to see that it is not shinola, but rather pure shite.

We oppose that liie for the same reason that we oppose creationist liies, because we support the truth, unlike creationists and Trumpisti.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 09-17-2019 12:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16104
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 853 of 919 (862919)
09-17-2019 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 850 by Faith
09-17-2019 12:40 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
Why is so much energy expended on proving he wasn't born in Kenya if it doesn't matter?

The energy I expended on copying and pasting my previous reply was minimal. I will expend more time and energy today on eating candy.

What makes you say that it doesn't matter?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 09-17-2019 12:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 856 by Faith, posted 09-17-2019 10:47 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6592
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 854 of 919 (862926)
09-17-2019 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 850 by Faith
09-17-2019 12:40 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
**** especially **** in the political arena always matter. The sad thing is like most **** from the right, this one was very easy to disprove. The problem is a sizeable group of people prefer hate over the truth. You are one of them.

The whole Q thing is the current incarnation of the need of people to suspend truth and facts in order to embrace their hate.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 850 by Faith, posted 09-17-2019 12:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 855 by Faith, posted 09-17-2019 10:33 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32954
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 855 of 919 (862930)
09-17-2019 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 854 by Theodoric
09-17-2019 8:49 AM


Re: I forgot about Snopes
The hate is all on the Left, tons of it, mountains of it. And I have never even bothered to look up Q so I still have no idea what it refers to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 854 by Theodoric, posted 09-17-2019 8:49 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
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