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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 734 of 868 (860026)
08-05-2019 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 733 by jar
08-05-2019 8:35 AM


Be careful what you teach.
jar writes:
The author of John was marketing a revisionist Jesus tale which is quite different than what is found in the other Gospels. The Jesus the author of John markets is as different from the Jesus character found in the other Gospels as the God in Genesis 1 is different than the God in Genesis 2&3.
This is but your opinion and does nothing but reinforces your brand of secular humanist/Jewish/Episcopalian philosophy based on your own minds conclusions as to how God *must* be. Most of the "clubs" in Christianity believe (though cannot prove) that Jesus exists outside the books. Jesus is alive.
But as I have explained many times here at EvC, if that was true, if Jesus was God when living here on Earth, then it simply denigrates and diminishes and worth or value to Jesus life and Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension.
No. It simply forces you to consider that just maybe not all of the apologists are conmen and liars. It is clearly evident how much influence the Judaism and common sense of your Mother, combined with Socratic thinking teachers who embraced all religions as human cultural constructs and did not teach jesus as eternally living in our hearts shaped what you stubbornly defend to be your brand of Christianity. In my opinion, you do both harm and good. You do good through what you teach by forcing your students to think about personal responsibility and your basic message that says that the *evidence* shpws that the God of the Bible was simply an evolving human construct and that Jesus was simply human. Kudos for a secular humanist hero. Yes, we are all called to be responsible...but sadly you do harm by not teaching that we humans can only succeed by being in Christ. You teach that everyone is saved. In a sense, you teach that we all are chosen and saved as long as we respond to the teachings of a human teacher. And that GOD is eternally unknowable.
I don't wish the last days on anyone. I am in fact convinced that if the world suffers a major period of war and unrest it will be our fault and not the fault of any devil or demon.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by jar, posted 08-05-2019 8:35 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by jar, posted 08-05-2019 10:59 AM Phat has replied
 Message 736 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2019 2:45 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 738 of 868 (860806)
08-12-2019 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 735 by jar
08-05-2019 10:59 AM


Re: Be careful what you teach.
You act as if logic, reason, and (secular) reality are the only paths through which to teach the bible. Answer my statement:
Most of the "clubs" in Christianity believe (though cannot prove) that Jesus exists outside the books.
True or false? Because this is what really separates your club from others.(or at least you)
As long as you teach that humans create their own God, you are doing a disservice, in my opinion. Yes, you are teaching people to be responsible and think for themselves. Any motivational speaker can do that.
Looking at the Big Picture, God first chose the Jewish people exclusively. Later, He added the Gentiles, which thanks to Paul became Protestants. Perhaps still later He will choose the Atheists as well. In which case your brand of Christian logic may make sense, assuming that humans can become responsible and productive without even acknowledging God or Jesus existence. It strikes a nerve in me, however. A bad vibe. Essentially you are preaching a whole new Gospel, where the snake tells the truth, God lies (and is but a literary character in a book) and that *we* are responsible. How is this not the Gospel of secular humanism??

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by jar, posted 08-05-2019 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by jar, posted 08-12-2019 10:59 AM Phat has replied
 Message 742 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 12:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 739 of 868 (860808)
08-12-2019 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 736 by dwise1
08-05-2019 2:45 PM


Re: Be careful what you teach.
dwise1,replying to me writes:
And sadly you do harm by teaching that we humans can only succeed by being in Christ.
Stop for just one moment. What is so harmful with embracing just that? Forget about church and religion. All that I (or any Baptist Divorce Group, perhaps) is doing is telling someone that a relationship with God(in the incarnation of Jesus) is the starting point for all other relationships to succeed in their life. Granted I could hear the ghost of Stile whispering that "this works for some people,but not for me".So I'm attempting to also consider you guys viewpoint. Freedom from religion and all that. lets make sure our kids grow up to be secular humanist critical thinkers! Perhaps we need to consider the possibility that God exists and wants a relationship with us. Explain why this statement alone causes you to cringe? Is it the whole freedom from religion thing that Barker preaches? Because to be honest, I don't agree with his conclusions and I feel as offended by his anti christianity as many of you feel about Christianity.
Here is one case: the DivorceCare program. It's a Baptist program that's widely used (the US Army required it for all couples going through marital problems, and might still require it) that apparently had been put together by Christian counselors. Overall, it's well meaning, but, like all Christian-counseling-based singles and marital programs/presentations, ends up doing more potential harm than good with used outside the intended audience (Christians, especially of the conservative/evangelical/fundamentalist variety).
OK I get it. All you people want is to keep religious beliefs out of mandatory public policy. Perhaps this is a necessary process.
In a late-80's speech, ex-fundamentalist preacher Dan Barker, now "America's Leading Atheist", described fundamentalism as "when your theology becomes your psychology."
I've studied both Theology and Psychology, so I think I get it. Our beliefs run very strong among us. We honestly believe that this world needs a spiritual infusion. Perhaps our zeal will actually cause Armageddon as a self fulfilling prophecy. So I'm open to understanding your counter views.
Therefore it would make sense that these Christians would need their own specially trained Christian counselors, since normal counselors would not give them the theological motivations and justifications that their altered psychologies require. By the same token, Christian counselors would not be suitable for normals, especially the non-Christians, the non-religious, the agnostics, and the atheists.
And that, essentially sums it all up.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2019 2:45 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 10:23 AM Phat has replied
 Message 750 by dwise1, posted 08-16-2019 2:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 743 of 868 (860992)
08-15-2019 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 741 by jar
08-12-2019 10:59 AM


Re: Be careful what you teach.
Phat, I am not preaching anything, rather I am reporting what is actually written. It seems it is not me or what I post that gets your panties in a bind but rather what is actually written in the Bible.
If anyone honestly reads Genesis 2 & 3 then they would admit that in the story the serpent tells the truth, the God lies and in fact the God character in the story even admits that the serpent told the truth and that Adam & Eve, far from falling, became more like God.
I simply cannot believe that a majority of Christian apologetics lies. More likely, you have no preconceived notions of how God should be and how the snake should be. Thus you let the text tell a different tale than the majority of apologetics tells.
It is Jesus that says we are responsible as well as Paul and many other characters in the Bible.
I've never doubted that we are responsible. That in and of itself gives us no reason to throw away the position that God has or should have in our lives. Your position places humanity in charge of its own destiny. It was never intended to be that way.
And you REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY need to learn some history of Christianity.
Paul had absolutely NOTHING top do with Protestantism.
Of course I knew that. And you know that I did. You just always seem to relish taking an opportunity to correct something I carelessly say as if i am stupid or ignorant. Which is a bad trait. Learn to humble yourself.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by jar, posted 08-12-2019 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by jar, posted 08-15-2019 10:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 744 of 868 (860993)
08-15-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 742 by ringo
08-12-2019 12:04 PM


Re: Be careful what you teach.
If it is true, it's because "most" of those clubs reject what's in the Bible like you do. They prefer their own made-up versions.
You are in the same club as jar, essentially. What possible motive would *you* have for teaching that God and Jesus are simply characters in a book rather than a living Spirit which seeks Communion with humanity? You seem to think humanity can do good enough simply doing what the characters suggest and that its ok to be secular humanist atheists. And there is one basic reason why its not ok. Because none are righteous. We need Communion as well as responsible effort.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 747 by ringo, posted 08-15-2019 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 749 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2019 6:01 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 746 of 868 (860995)
08-15-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 740 by Stile
08-12-2019 10:23 AM


Re: Be careful what you teach.
stile writes:
People are different.
Different solutions work for different people.
Forcing all people into one solution is, basically, what's caused pretty much all wars in human history.
So what would you do if you someday found out that your solutions were wrong?
Isnt it a bit ironic that most of Christian online defenders of the faith are not skilled or Christlike and end up doing more harm than good for the cause?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 10:23 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 748 by Stile, posted 08-15-2019 2:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 758 of 868 (861833)
08-27-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 757 by jar
08-27-2019 1:16 PM


jar writes:
Nicea was primarily a gathering to kick some factions out of the mainstream Christian communion, and the Nicean Creed was primarily designed as a political touchstone much like the KJV was designed as a political tool to try to tone down the Anti-Roman Catholic segments of the society and to establish the Divine Right of Kings to rule.
I think that many Evangelicals assume that whenever early believers gathered together it was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit such as is described (and in my opinion accurately) in the book of Acts. Nicea, however, was likely not such a gathering. I doubt whether many of those Bishops and officials walked in the Spirit on a regular basis....but then again, you will ask what this even means. You basically argue that God is a product of human imagination, consensus, and mythos...whereas Faith and I would argue that God exists perfectly and impartially independent of human input. What we can't do, however, is explain how it is more than coincidental that the God of modern imagination is uncanningly defined through human authors throughout the ages....I suppose we would argue that the Holy Spirit inspired folks such as John Calvin. RC Sproul would likely agree. I believe that Sproul was not simply some conman. He had a genuine love of scripture and of logic, reason, and reality but where you differ is that you are unafraid to throw God and the Holy Spirit away and just go with your reason.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by jar, posted 08-27-2019 1:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2019 5:16 PM Phat has replied
 Message 760 by jar, posted 08-27-2019 5:20 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 761 of 868 (861934)
08-29-2019 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 760 by jar
08-27-2019 5:20 PM


Walking In The Spirit
jar writes:
Why do you think those gathered at Nicea 1 were any different than any gathering of prelates today? Does it matter whether is is a College of Cardinals or the First President and the Twelve or the General Conference or the Chapter of Monks?
Yes, it does. The believers gathered in the Upper Room in Acts were not simply a hodgepodge group with individual beliefs. They all walked in the Spirit.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 760 by jar, posted 08-27-2019 5:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 763 by jar, posted 08-29-2019 2:15 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 767 by 1.61803, posted 08-29-2019 5:33 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 762 of 868 (861936)
08-29-2019 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 759 by AZPaul3
08-27-2019 5:16 PM


You are so untrusting and too skeptical. Though a healthy trait, I think you have a bias against Christian preachers specifically. Theodoric warns us of Ravi Zacharias because of some incident that in Theos opinion tarnished his legacy and reputation.
I consider Sproul one of the better ones, for he uses basic philosophical ideas coupled with traditional (and common) Theological understanding of scripture.
Zacharias and many of the ministers at his site also use good logic.
But im curious. On the atheist side, do you have any favorite people to listen to? Personally I like Matt Dillahunty...he is very logical.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 759 by AZPaul3, posted 08-27-2019 5:16 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 3:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 785 of 868 (862555)
09-06-2019 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by ringo
09-06-2019 12:10 PM


Heres The Deal: The Clash Of World Views
I have read numerous arguments and positions from many sides regarding what the Bible actually says. I also listen to many philosophies and worldviews from both atheists and believers. I learn a lot, but have not quite arrived at a conclusion. I think I have one loosely sketched out, however.
ringo writes:
You can find bunk on page one.
And you can (and have) found words of wisdom to live by in Matthew 25. jar used to always point out to me the idea of source versus content. Many people are hung up defending the Source of the Bible. To me, this is important only in that I believe that a higher source (God, the highest source) exists and desires communion with humanity. That being said, I can also respect many non-believers if they advocate doing what Jesus told us to do and if they are otherwise loving and forgiving towards the many attitudes of smugness, arrogance, and know-it-all beliefs of many believers. By their works(fruits) you shall know them. This morning I listened to some good podcasts.
Several good points were presented.
  • Those who believe what hawking said about a universe who can and will spontaneously create itself from nothing" are in effect believing in a "Virgin Birth" of a universe. The critics will attempt to attack and debunk the "source" of scripture and refute its logic, yet many of the math formulas used by hawking and others to explain how a universe "can and will" create itself from nothing fail to see that their "math scriptures" are also meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
    Another podcast which I found respectable was from Vince Vitale. (You once asked me to find you an honest apologist. Vince and his wife qualify)
    The podcast was titled Is A United Christian Church Possible?
    From the transcript:
    quote:
    Are we willing to fully hear somebody else before we start judging them? So often we talk about people who hold different views from us, but we've never even spoken to those people. We've never actually even gone to the source and asked them, how do you understand this? Have you ever thought about this? How do you interpret this verse of scripture? This is how I've read it. Can you talk to me about how you make sense of these things?
    I just think Jesus is the most amazing model for us. The Bible talks about Him being full of grace and truth. I think it's so often we're so concerned about truth, rightly so, we should be concerned about truth, but we get so caught up in that, that we lose the love. Scripture talks about, "As Christ laid down His life for us, we're to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters."
    And so the question for us is, are truth and love coming together in our lives? Vince actually says this really well. He says that "Truth without love isn't truth and love without truth isn't love." I just think that that has to be wherever you begin, and that has to be where these conversations start.
    Vince Vitale: Yeah, and they are definitely difficult conversations to have. But one of the things I love about The Bible is that I think it speaks clearly and repetitively on the most essential matters of doctrine, and it tends to speak less frequently on matters that are of secondary and tertiary importance. Not to say that those aren't important, but when you talk about the core elements of doctrine when you talk about the physical, literal, miraculous resurrection of Jesus Christ, I don't think someone can read The Bible honestly and say that is not what it's saying. That is what it's clearly saying and not just once, but it has said it repetitively. So we need to do our best to say what are those core issues of faith and then where is there room for reasonable disagreement, not because we allow it, but because The Bible allows for it.
    One passage that I find helpful here is in Galatians 2. I think Paul has been in his ministry for about 17 years, and Paul, Barnabas, and Titus go up to Jerusalem to discuss the commonalities and also the differences between the ministry that they have been doing and the ministry of Peter, James, and John that has been to the Jewish community. Peter, James, and John recognize that Paul has been entrusted with the task of preaching the Gospel to the gentiles just as Peter had been trusted to do so to the Jews. The Bible says, "For God who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised was also at work in me as an apostle to the gentiles," so James, Peter, and John gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship. They agreed that they should go to the gentiles and that they should go to the Jews.
    And then I love this wonderful closing line in the discussions where they're recognizing they're both doing ministry, they're doing it in different contexts, they're doing it in somewhat different ways, but they're coming together. They're extending the right hand of fellowship to each other and then there is this wonderful closing line, "All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along."
    I expect that you agree with Vitale, as you yourself emphasize the message (over the messenger ) The church can and should be unified and of one mind and heart regarding the major issues.
    quote:
    I think the significance of that, to get back to this question of how can we be unified despite difference, it's partly by serving together. It's partly by continuing to remember the poor, remembering the poor physically, also remembering the poor, spiritually. There was one pastor who I had of the church where even among the leadership they had some differing theological opinions, not on core matters of doctrine, but on secondary and tertiary issues.
    I asked him once, "How do you manage to minister together and lead this church together when you actually disagree on some significant important things?" He said to me, "If you do enough mission, there is no time for division." You have to qualify that statement to some extent, but I think there is real truth in it as well. When you are actually missionally aimed as a community in the context of a relationship, you are looking to sacrificially serve people, serve the physical poor, serve the spiritual poor together.
    It's amazing how often you then wind up finding more unity even doctrinally. You find it as you're walking side by side serving people in humility in the sacrificial way that Jesus has asked us to, not primarily by sitting in an ivory tower and doing philosophy together. I'm a philosopher. I'm not disparaging that. I love that, but I think in terms of unity in the church, it has to be done as we serve together.
    Michael Davis:
    I had a conversation with an atheist a while back where he started talking about, "Well, you know there is like 10,000 different denominations in the United States. There is no such thing as the Christian Church," and some of it just kind of popped out of my mind. It was very similar to what you said was. I was like, it's like there is actually really only two groups of Christians. You've got those who believe what Vince just said, which is The Bible is the final authority. I think that the other groups are the people who don't.
    One group worship God as revealed in scripture. And then the other group submit themselves to their own idea of who God is. So if we really look at the Church Universal, there really are just two groups of Christians. It's, am I going to look upon my Bible and am I going to say this is God's word to me, or am I going to look at this Bible, I'm going to pick and choose which elements of it and which parts of it that I like and that is going to be the God I create?
    So I do think that to Vince's point from before, yes, we're going to have differences and we're going to disagree on some things, but ultimately we are unified as the Catholic, the Universal Catholic Church, no, not Roman Catholic, but the Universal Church that we are the core fundamentals is going to be how we're unified.
    Jo Vitale: I love one example of the way that the church, and that we go to has recently started doing this actually on the issue of race. They started conversations with local churches, some of which have predominantly black congregations, some are predominantly white, but they've set up a course called, Conversations where these churches are coming together. And first off, just getting to know each other, sharing meals together and then gradually over the course of that tying together they're journeying and sharing their experiences and just talking about race and weeping together and praying for each other. And just to get everyone in a room together and just to hear from each other, to listen, to ask questions, to understand what somebody else has been through from a different church to you, I think no one comes away from that unchanged and unmoved and not desiring to work towards greater racial unity in this country.
    I think it's beautiful that this Conversations Movement is happening around the question of race. Wouldn't it be amazing to have all sorts of Conversation Movements on other issues that might divide us as well?
    Comments?
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 784 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 12:10 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 786 by ringo, posted 09-07-2019 12:55 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 787 of 868 (862623)
    09-08-2019 11:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 786 by ringo
    09-07-2019 12:55 PM


    Re: Heres The Deal: The Clash Of World Views
    ringo writes:
    The source of the Bible is human wisdom. We know that because the same wisdom is available in other scriptures, some of them older than the Bible.
    Rubbish. Human wisdom fails to explain the narrative. Do you honestly think that a bunch of writers from among a largely illiterate population each with their own agenda(politically or religiously) compiled these manuscripts? The Bible confirms a human search for God and subsequent contact. jar will trot out his "facts" about different Gods being described, but he is not a trustworthy source since he is a closet secular humanist who only claims Christianity to legitimize his ability to represent it with his faith-killing logic. Whenever you are told to throw God away and use your own human reasoning to summerize the Bible, know that there are principalities and powers with agendas to keep your faith quenched and in a state of doubt. Every Christian knows that the central focus of the books known as the Bible is to lift up Jesus Christ and celebrate the communion between Man and God. If you want storybooks, go find better ones.
    Last I checked, Long John Silver is still available.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 786 by ringo, posted 09-07-2019 12:55 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 788 by NosyNed, posted 09-08-2019 12:53 PM Phat has replied
     Message 789 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2019 12:58 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 790 by ringo, posted 09-08-2019 2:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 793 of 868 (862857)
    09-14-2019 4:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 792 by jar
    09-13-2019 6:24 PM


    Re: Try ethics. Who knows, you might even like it.
    Yeah yeah yeah. You have a legal claim to such a title, I know. Yet you (and ringo) think that all (or a majority of apologists) are dishonest. I might ask what it is about you that makes you so honest...? I personally think you lean more towards defining the mission of Jesus as a reformation of judaism and that you have a motive to point out the errors in Biblical Christianity and guide people into thinking that it is simply misinterpreted and actually *should* be an extension of Judaism. You would then ask me "What Does The Evidence Show?"
    Lets see what the apologists reply:
    quote:
    Nearly everyone who has been a part of a small-group Bible study or Bible discussion group has heard these words spoken: To me, the verse means. . . . Sometimes this is said innocently, and all the speaker intends is to convey what he thinks the author of the text is teaching to all people. All too often, however, people who say such things are actually reflecting the radical subjectivism to which they hold, whether consciously or unconsciously. In such cases, the person assumes that the verse can mean one thing to him and something completely different to someone else without either of them being wrong.
    Such a radically subjective view ends up divorcing all meaning from the text. If the text can mean many different things at the same time, it can mean anything, and if it can mean anything, it really means nothing. Scripture becomes, as Martin Luther put it, a wax nose that can be shaped into whatever form the interpreter likes. When this happens, the interpreter cannot be corrected by the text; rather, the interpreter becomes lord over the text.
    So it seems that when you (and to a similar degree ringo) "teach" scripture, you have it describe a different "God" than the mainstream apologists do. Dare I say that you are at odds with the global majority of those who call themselves Christians. You are urging people to simply read the text, which is normally commendable, but I find it a problem when you and the mainstream Christianity disagree. Surely *they* are not all carny hucksters. And if so, how do we know that what you are selling (Personal Responsibility and secular humanistic do-goodedness) is the right product to be pushing? And i see that here at EvC you have a hungry secular humanist audience who wants nothing to do with an actual God marketed by reformed Calvinists. You will sell a lot of what you write here....but only here.
    Also I do not take things out of context like so many "Biblical Christians" seem to do
    I will admit that you have attempted to teach me to read the text and decide for myself what it means rather than buying the idea sold by the Evangelicals...err I mean Hucksters. I also rely on Gods inspiration, however. You never seem to even mention that.
    Jesus was not a Christian
    Point blank question: Was Jesus God? Is Jesus God? What does the evidence show? If you are a Christian (or even a good Jew) you will have a definite answer. You likely will try and frame the issue by saying that your personal beliefs are irrelevant. I call bullshit.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 792 by jar, posted 09-13-2019 6:24 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 796 by jar, posted 09-14-2019 4:46 PM Phat has replied
     Message 798 by ringo, posted 09-15-2019 2:07 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 794 of 868 (862858)
    09-14-2019 4:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 788 by NosyNed
    09-08-2019 12:53 PM


    Re: Closeted
    Ned writes:
    Funny thing to those of us reading what you and Jar write; he actually quotes the bible to support what he says. We can read things supporting his views.
    Point taken. I have a worthy opponent, though he himself claims to be Christian. Which leads me to wonder why we disagree...shouldn't we have the same "Spirit"? What are your basic beliefs, Ned...are you an atheist or will you simply claim to be a critical thinker? Don't get me wrong...I respect your reply, even if it gives more credibility to my opponent than to myself. I need to ask myself who I represent and who I intend to represent. Thanks for your criticism.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 788 by NosyNed, posted 09-08-2019 12:53 PM NosyNed has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 795 of 868 (862860)
    09-14-2019 4:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 781 by Dredge
    09-06-2019 1:36 AM


    I AM a Christian
    jar writes:
    None of the Bible comes from God unless the God is intentionally supplying false and misleading information. There is no other explanation possible since there are numerous examples of stories that evolve as they are retold and also examples of direct mutually exclusive accounts of supposedly the same event. Over the years I've covered many such examples here. Two clear examples are from the New Testament; the evolution of the Great Commission and the encounter of Saul on the road to Damascus.
    Dredge writes:
    The fact that you’ve put so much effort into debunking the Bible and its supernatural contents strongly suggests you are motivated by some gigantic hang-up about Christianity. Maybe you were abused by some fag priest when you were ten. Who knows?
    Additional evidence that the Bible is a creation of humans is the fact that there is no such thing as "The Bible" but rather a whole set of canons ranging from the smallest that contains only the first five books and none of the New Testament to the largest that contains over 80 books.
    Dredge writes:
    News flash!! God’s official organisation on earth - the Catholic Church - defined exactly what the Bible contains about 1500 years ago.
    jar writes:
    But if there is a Heaven I am very sure Christians will be a very small minority there and that there will be far more atheist, agnostics, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews. Taoists as well as followers of Confucius and Mencius in attendance.
    Very sure? Oh, that's right...God saves everybody! I forgot! Doh.....
    None of the Bible comes from God unless the God is intentionally supplying false and misleading information. There is no other explanation possible ...
    Quite sure about that too, I see. Let's summarize: You are "very sure" that Heaven, if Heaven exists...will have more of the people who never believed but simply did what is right, correct? I hope you are right....but I am skeptical. Also, you are quite sure that "the Bible" was uninspired and did *not* come from God. Which must mean that He either used some other method or that He never communes with humanity. Quite a powerful statement from a man who claims to be a Christian.
    In all seriousness, though....what Spook are you representing?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 781 by Dredge, posted 09-06-2019 1:36 AM Dredge has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 797 of 868 (862874)
    09-15-2019 1:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 796 by jar
    09-14-2019 4:46 PM


    Re: Try ethics. Who knows, you might even like it.
    If Jesus was more than simply human while living here on Earth then the whole play is simply a worthless farce and con job.
    You are attempting to market an idea and ideology. Freedom of speech allows this, thank God. I get a little terse with you because you frame your arguments with personal jibes such as "Learn To Read" and "Have You Ever Read The Bible"?
    You are admittedly a master at framing arguments and steering them in the direction that *you* want them to go. But I wont let you get away with the argument that you are not selling anything. You are engaged in a full-on attack on Biblical Christianity. I see that in a larger context you are supporting the idea that Jesus was merely teaching reformed Judaism and that Paul came along and started a new religion which Biblical Christians continue to support to this very day. In a way, you are marketing the basic idea that the best Jews are those who live a secular life, do good at every opportunity (as their Rabbi Jesus taught) and don't bother getting to know God except by doing good deeds every day and living like Gods people. I charge you with selling the idea to everybody that essentially says:
  • Biblical Christianity is illogical and wrong and is one of the greatest threats to the Western Culture and indeed global culture today.
  • "Getting to know God or Jesus" is a marketing con carried out by carnys and snake oil salesmen. Most Biblical Christians are dishonest snake oil salesmen. (I expect your mama taught you this initially) You likely will ask me what the evidence shows.
  • We are simply charged with feeding, clothing, and comforting each other. Secular humanism is perfectly fine.
  • There will be more people in heaven who don't buy the snake oil than those that do. Most of those that do are Christians. (and yet you say that you too are a Christian...and invite other Christians to consider what you point out. )
    Notice that I listened. I'm sampling your *product* as we speak, yet I likely will return it. Like Paul, I prefer marketing my own.
    Its good practice for Faith and I, though. Teaches us to learn to think and to read our Bible.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 796 by jar, posted 09-14-2019 4:46 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 801 by jar, posted 09-15-2019 4:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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