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Author | Topic: Brexit - Should they stay or should they go? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9634 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Percy writes: I've probably said this before, but why can't Britain reverse Brexit? It can. It would need another vote. And the vote would have to come out 'stay'.
Why is the result of this populist resolution considered cast in stone? It isn't, but it would need another vote.
Every few years, as in all countries, Britain reverses itself and puts the opposite party in charge. Why can't Britain reverse itself on Brexit? Why doesn't the USA change the 2nd amendment?
I hear that the political temperature on Brexit is a close thing, that there is no guarantee that voting on it again wouldn't again be a close affair, but that makes no sense. Sense? It's the great unwashed we're talking about here.
The British people couldn't possibly be so dense. You're kidding?
Brexit passed because its negative aspects were not understood at the time. Now they are. How could Brexit ever pass again? Because people en masse are fucking stupid. You know that. Educated, rational, thoughtful people are a minority, that's why it's a really fucking stupid idea to ask the masses a complicated question.
I'm sure i've again revealed my woeful ignorance of British politics, but that's the way I feel. No, you've just revealed your ignorance of the majority of people. Just like our politicians did. Well one of them, Cameron.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Percy Member Posts: 23188 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Tangle writes: Why is the result of this populist resolution considered cast in stone? It isn't, but it would need another vote. Oh, sure, I understand that.
Every few years, as in all countries, Britain reverses itself and puts the opposite party in charge. Why can't Britain reverse itself on Brexit? Why doesn't the USA change the 2nd amendment? I didn't mean to ask why doesn't Britain reverse itself on Brexit, but why *can't* it. The reason for that phrasing is because the way I often hear it described over here is that there can't be another vote on Brexit because it would be undemocratic. The British people have already democratically expressed their will, and to ask them the same question again just because implementation poses difficult issues is undemocratic. The flip side of it, of course, is that Britain was sold a bill of goods on Brexit. It has few of the benefits promised, and it includes many costs that were left unmentioned.
I'm sure i've again revealed my woeful ignorance of British politics, but that's the way I feel. No, you've just revealed your ignorance of the majority of people. Just like our politicians did. Well one of them, Cameron. But I think there's a basic economic psychology issue being ignored. People in general respond more viscerally to fears than to benefits. When on an objective level the costs and benefits balance out, people will always respond more strongly to the costs. In other words, fear mongering works. Brexit has to be fought with equivalent fear mongering. For example, one doesn't argue that Britain's position in the EU makes it the financial center, and so Britain should stay. One instead argues that a good portion of Britain's financial power would move to the continent, and so Britain shouldn't leave. --Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9634 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Percy writes: The reason for that phrasing is because the way I often hear it described over here is that there can't be another vote on Brexit because it would be undemocratic. That's just propaganda. There could be another vote and it would be democratic. The argument is that we had no idea what Brexit was when we voted, now we are beginning to understand that there are different forms of it - some, seemingly suicidal. We need another vote to be sure what is actually wanted.
In other words, fear mongering works. Brexit has to be fought with equivalent fear mongering. For example, one doesn't argue that Britain's position in the EU makes it the financial center, and so Britain should stay. One instead argues that a good portion of Britain's financial power would move to the continent, and so Britain shouldn't leave. The remainers were accused of 'project fear' - pointing out all the problems of Brexit. It didn't work and it won't work. The majority of Brexiters are older, poorer and less educated - they don't care how bad it will be, they just want out. It's a simple and misguided rejection of current politics (and immigration). They were ignored by politics and politicians for too long. A similar sentiment got you Trump. They want it broken. The sad thing is that it's just those people that will be harmed by Brexit.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2363 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
I didn't mean to ask why doesn't Britain reverse itself on Brexit, but why *can't* it.
they can reverse Brexit. The referendum was non-binding, the government has no legal obligation to go through with it. The EU court has said that the UK can stop the process anytime they want without needing the agreement of the other members. It is legally possible to for them to just say "oops changed our minds, we're staying". It's politics that are keeping this clusterfuck going.It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8712 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
What I find interesting is that Boris could go to the Queen and say "Shut down Parliament," and she just does it. It's legal.
I wish we could do that with our Senate. [abe]
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation. |
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Can't have Brexit without Jonathan Pie. ![]() |
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Percy Member Posts: 23188 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
DrJones* writes: They can reverse Brexit. The referendum was non-binding, the government has no legal obligation to go through with it. The EU court has said that the UK can stop the process anytime they want without needing the agreement of the other members. It is legally possible to for them to just say "oops changed our minds, we're staying". It's politics that are keeping this clusterfuck going. This is new information for me. I didn't know the referendum was non-binding. The downside risks and difficulties of Brexit are now so obvious and apparent that it seems a no-brainer to bring it to a halt. It is too bad that the politics makes this impossible. --Percy
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I remember that court case in the news.
Not only was the vote nonbinding, but it didn't even authorize the government to withdraw from the EU. Parliament had to actually vote on Brexit themselves before it could happen.Hard as it is to fathom, Mr President, just because you’re the leader of the free world doesn’t entitle you to a free pass. Unfortunately, just a free press. -- Neil Cavuto
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
quote: Commons Speaker John Bercow to stand down - BBC News There were rumblings about the Conservative party attempting to vote him out, so it appears that he beat them to the punch. Or maybe he just decided to bail before the No Deal Brexit deadline.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1349 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Boris' cunning plan to get around the law requiring him to request an extension was, apparently, to send two letters to Brussels. The first, as mandated by law, would request the Council for an extension to the leave date. The second would request the Council to ignore the first.
Exact content of the second letter is not clear. "Only joking!"; "I had my fingers crossed so it didn't count"; or simply "Noooot!" are all possibilities. Legal experts have weighed in that all would leave Johnson guilty of contempt, however.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1349 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Johnson's government has managed to suffer more Commons defeats in one week than either Thatcher or Blair did in premierships that lasted more than a decade.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Johnson's government has managed to suffer more Commons defeats in one week than either Thatcher or Blair did in premierships that lasted more than a decade. I wonder if there is an award for that. I am curious what the next steps are going to be. Parliament is now in recess and Johnson is supposed to be going to the EU to broker a new deal. I doubt that will get much traction. His plan to use No Deal as a bargaining chip seems to now be gone. And he has emphatically stated he will not ask the EU for an extension despite technically now being mandated by law to do so if he has no new deal. I am still wondering if the EU might just decide to end this charade and not grant another extension. Macron has hinted at this, although he may be grandstanding. But from where I sit, it seems the EU is holding all the cards right now. So I wouldn't be surprised if they simply denied the extension and told the UK that they either need to accept the deal already in place or revoke Article 50. Put all the onus on them.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1349 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
I wonder if there is an award for that. I am curious what the next steps are going to be. Parliament is now in recess and Johnson is supposed to be going to the EU to broker a new deal. I doubt that will get much traction. His plan to use No Deal as a bargaining chip seems to now be gone. And he has emphatically stated he will not ask the EU for an extension despite technically now being mandated by law to do so if he has no new deal. I am still wondering if the EU might just decide to end this charade and not grant another extension. Macron has hinted at this, although he may be grandstanding. But from where I sit, it seems the EU is holding all the cards right now. So I wouldn't be surprised if they simply denied the extension and told the UK that they either need to accept the deal already in place or revoke Article 50. Put all the onus on them. It's not as if the possibility of leaving without a deal is gone. All the current legislation does is require the PM to request an extension if Parliament does not approve a deal; or exiting without a deal; by mid-October. If the European Council refuses an extension then exiting without a deal on 31st remains the default outcome. ABE - and I intentionally wrote 'European Council' rather than EU above for a reason. People often talk about 'the EU' as if such a thing exists as a decision-making entity, but it doesn't. When we're saying what 'the EU' will do, it's important to remember what actual institution (and by extension, which actual people) we mean in a given situation. In this case, it means the European Council; and importantly any decision to change anything already agreed upon with the UK (including the departure date) would require unanimity in the Council. So, for the EU to refuse an extension it only actually requires one of the 27 national governments to do so. Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1730 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
ABE - and I intentionally wrote 'European Council' rather than EU above for a reason. People often talk about 'the EU' as if such a thing exists as a decision-making entity, but it doesn't. When we're saying what 'the EU' will do, it's important to remember what actual institution (and by extension, which actual people) we mean in a given situation. Curious, how are the members of this council chosen? I'm thinking they are not elected but appointed. Enjoyby our ability to understand RebelAmericanZenDeist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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jar Member (Idle past 164 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
They are the Heads of State of the member nations.
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