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Author Topic:   Stories about prayer
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 80 (862384)
09-04-2019 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
09-04-2019 12:40 PM


Re: Instances of prayer in the series "Forensic Files"
Faith writes:

He seems to always answer for me but other categories He doesn't, so I figure He doesn't want me to have what I ask for in those cases.

I always answer prayers too. If you get what you want, I did it. If you don't, the answer was, "No."


“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 09-04-2019 12:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 19 of 80 (862456)
09-05-2019 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
09-05-2019 12:06 AM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

I believe that all prayers were answered that day.


Would that be the same "day" as Adam and Eve dying on the same "day" that they ate the fruit?

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 09-05-2019 12:06 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 09-05-2019 6:05 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 22 of 80 (862510)
09-05-2019 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
09-05-2019 6:05 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

The larger question is....


I'm more interested in the smaller question, the one I asked. If you can fudge a "day" in Genesis into a whole lifetime, how does God answering prayer "on the same day" work? Does it mean in my lifetime? Or Adam's lifetime?

Or is it just another sound bite with no meaning?

Phat writes:

... why God only answers *some* prayers.


As I mentioned to Faith, I answer *some* prayers. How is that different from what God does?

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 09-05-2019 6:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 09-05-2019 11:03 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 27 of 80 (862545)
09-06-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
09-05-2019 11:03 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that there should be some sort of rule about the method and intention for answered prayer?


Am I stuttering? I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting.

For the third time: You said in Message 14, "I believe that all prayers were answered that day." (September 11, 2001) You also believe, if I recall correctly, that in Genesis 3, Adam and Eve did die "the same day" as they ate the fruit - but they actually lived a whole lifetime before they died. So does "that day" (September 11, 2001) also mean a whole lifetime? Are you allowing a whole lifetime for an answer to prayer? And whose lifetime? The people who died on September 11, 2001 didn't have their prayers answered in their lifetime, did they?

Phat writes:

Sorta like how you feel that God should protect us at all times from all plagues, accidents, and disasters if He in fact had the ability??


Well, I would, if I could. Wouldn't you? Why would we expect less from a god than we expect from each other? What would the value of that God be?

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 09-05-2019 11:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 09-06-2019 4:43 PM ringo has responded
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 4:50 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 36 of 80 (862597)
09-07-2019 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
09-06-2019 4:43 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

The people who died on September 11, 2001 didn't have their prayers answered in their lifetime, did they?


I believe that they did. Granted their remaining lifetime was a matter of minutes.

Do you really not see how ridiculous that sounds?

When people are in a building that is collapsing, I would think a lot of them would be praying, "God help me get out of here alive." How was that prayer answered?

Phat writes:

What makes you think that even atheists didn't have a desperate hope and belief of salvation...or leaving peace with family---milliseconds before they perished?


No doubt many of them would "pray". That's the culture we live in.

But the question I'm asking is: How were those prayers, or the prayers of believers, answered?


“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 09-06-2019 4:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 1:40 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 37 of 80 (862598)
09-07-2019 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
09-06-2019 4:50 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Faith writes:

There are lots of miracle stories from 9/11, people who didn't go to the tower that day by some fluke, people who got out miraculously, people who got saved that day, a woman who in retrospect is sure it was an angel who helped her get out.


You remind me of the gamblers who only remember their wins. Gambling must be a good idea because they won $1000 once. But the casinos stay in business because it cost them $5000 to win $1000.

I'm more concerned about the cases where a miracle didn't happen.


“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 09-06-2019 4:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 1:31 PM ringo has responded
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 09-07-2019 3:55 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 40 of 80 (862603)
09-07-2019 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
09-07-2019 1:31 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

That's why you are currently an atheist.


You don't know why I'm an atheist.

Phat writes:

You can't wrap your mind around the belief in a God Who doesn't answer each and every prayer by rescuing the individual.


Well, I can't figure out why you would have any interest in such a "god".

Phat writes:

God foresees the tragedy as it unfolds, perhaps. He watches the terrorists as they sow a plan to bring about destruction towards the entrenched power and greed of their enemy.


That makes him an accomplice.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 1:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 1:55 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 41 of 80 (862604)
09-07-2019 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
09-07-2019 1:40 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

For others, their family would find peace in the midst of the tragedy of their death.


Seriously?

Phat writes:

One thing I don't believe, and that is that God is like a giant rescuer Who appears, diverts the path of the airplane, and saves the greatest number of people which he can.


We know he isn't. That's what makes him a monster.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 1:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 1:52 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 44 of 80 (862607)
09-07-2019 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
09-07-2019 1:52 PM


Re: God the Rescuer
Phat writes:

So in other words, despite the unbelief in the God described by many, you think that in your mind you can envision a better God.


I can envision seven better gods before breakfast.

Phat writes:

Let me guess...in a perfect world governed by the God of your imagination, nobody would ever kill, steal, or slander their parents. Nobody would ever desire anything that anyone else had. We would all be happy little people scratching each other back as this God taught us to do...giving more than we received and paying it forward. And should a natural disaster arise, this God would divert it from our path.


Why not?

Phat writes:

Which is why you simply see the utopian people behaving like altruistic socialists without need for a God.


You keep getting that wrong. We do have a "need" for a god who would do those things - but there is none. You're just trying to reconcile the real world with a God who does nothing.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 1:52 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 46 of 80 (862609)
09-07-2019 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
09-07-2019 1:55 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

God is an accomplice in every human decision ever made.


If He isn't doing anything to stop the bad stuff, how do we know He's contributing anything to the good stuff?

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 1:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 3:00 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 49 of 80 (862631)
09-08-2019 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
09-07-2019 3:00 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
If you "need" a mythical god-creature to motivate you to be good, how is that different from needing a mythical god-creature to stop you from being a murderer?

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 09-07-2019 3:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 09-08-2019 4:45 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 50 of 80 (862632)
09-08-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
09-07-2019 3:55 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Faith writes:

It's not at all like gambling because I'm not at all thinking about percentages and rates, how many prayers answered as opposed to how many not, how many miracles as opposed to how many not.


That's the point; you should be.

Faith writes:

If there's an incidence of one person being helped by an angel I just think that's interesting, I don't see any necessity to compare it to all the others who didn't encounter angels.


If only one prayer in a thousand is "answered" you should be wondering whether it really is an answer or just a coincidence.

Faith writes:

If it snows on a day in July, why am I obliged to mention all the times it didn't?


You're not "obliged" to notice it at all. But if you're going to ascribe incidents to miracles and/or answered prayer, you should put some thought into whether they really are miracles and/or answered prayers.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 09-07-2019 3:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 09-08-2019 3:10 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 52 of 80 (862637)
09-08-2019 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
09-08-2019 3:10 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Faith writes:

God answers prayer through many ordinary means


So do I.

Faith writes:

believers recognize as His answers what unbelievers would dismiss as coincidence or at least nothing out of the ordinary.


The same goes for believers in Allah or Ganesh.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 09-08-2019 3:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 09-08-2019 4:40 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 55 of 80 (862652)
09-09-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
09-08-2019 4:40 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

The point we are trying to make regarding our belief is that there is One God and that yes, we just happen to have been found by Him.


That's not a "point you are making". It's just a belief you are preaching. It's like saying you like ice cream.

Phat writes:

You, predictably, along with jar use scripture to refute what the mainstream church and apologetics have taught and come up with an entirely different way of defining scripture.


Not at all. I point out what the scripture says. Your churches and apologists have been teaching you wrong.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 09-08-2019 4:40 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18132
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(5)
Message 56 of 80 (862653)
09-09-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
09-08-2019 4:45 PM


Re: Thread is for reporting answered prayers
Phat writes:

Critics will say that we believers would be reprobates without Him...


No, it's believers who say that. We unbelievers actually have a higher opinion of you believers than you have of yourselves.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 09-08-2019 4:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 09-09-2019 3:15 PM ringo has responded
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 09-10-2019 12:09 PM ringo has responded

  
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