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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 781 of 862 (862524)
09-06-2019 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 780 by jar
09-01-2019 10:00 AM


jar writes:

None of the Bible comes from God unless the God is intentionally supplying false and misleading information. There is no other explanation possible since there are numerous examples of stories that evolve as they are retold and also examples of direct mutually exclusive accounts of supposedly the same event. Over the years I've covered many such examples here. Two clear examples are from the New Testament; the evolution of the Great Commission and the encounter of Saul on the road to Damascus.


The fact that you’ve put so much effort into debunking the Bible and its supernatural contents strongly suggests you are motivated by some gigantic hang-up about Christianity. Maybe you were abused by some fag priest when you were ten. Who knows?

Additional evidence that the Bible is a creation of humans is the fact that there is no such thing as "The Bible™" but rather a whole set of canons ranging from the smallest that contains only the first five books and none of the New Testament to the largest that contains over 80 books.

News flash!! God’s official organisation on earth - the Catholic Church - defined exactly what the Bible contains about 1500 years ago.

But if there is a Heaven I am very sure Christians will be a very small minority there and that there will be far more *******, agnostics, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews. Taoists as well as followers of Confucius and Mencius in attendance.

Your anti-Christian phobia is showing again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by jar, posted 09-01-2019 10:00 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by jar, posted 09-06-2019 7:55 AM Dredge has responded
 Message 784 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 12:10 PM Dredge has not yet responded
 Message 795 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-14-2019 4:42 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 782 of 862 (862525)
09-06-2019 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 779 by jar
09-01-2019 7:45 AM


jar writes:

Yet the fact remains I am not interpreting anything but rather simply pointing out what is actually written in EVERY version of the Nicene Creed since 325CE.
It's also a fact the the Bible is filled with contradicts and mutually exclusive accounts of what is said to have happened.

Contradiction? All four gospels provide accounts of Jesus being accused of blasphemy by the Jews. In each case, it is because Jesus claimed to be God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 779 by jar, posted 09-01-2019 7:45 AM jar has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 783 of 862 (862532)
09-06-2019 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 781 by Dredge
09-06-2019 1:36 AM


Dredge writes:

News flash!! God’s official organisation on earth - the Catholic Church - defined exactly what the Bible contains about 1500 years ago.

Yet the fact remains that the Roman Catholic Canon is but one of many Canons.

And the fact remains that I AM a Christian and so have no anti-Christian Phobia.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Dredge, posted 09-06-2019 1:36 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 791 by Dredge, posted 09-13-2019 6:04 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 784 of 862 (862547)
09-06-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by Dredge
09-06-2019 1:36 AM


Dredge writes:

The fact that you’ve put so much effort into debunking the Bible....


It doesn't take much effort. You can find bunk on page one.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Dredge, posted 09-06-2019 1:36 AM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 785 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-06-2019 1:48 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 785 of 862 (862555)
09-06-2019 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by ringo
09-06-2019 12:10 PM


Heres The Deal: The Clash Of World Views
I have read numerous arguments and positions from many sides regarding what the Bible actually says. I also listen to many philosophies and worldviews from both atheists and believers. I learn a lot, but have not quite arrived at a conclusion. I think I have one loosely sketched out, however.

ringo writes:

You can find bunk on page one.

And you can (and have) found words of wisdom to live by in Matthew 25. jar used to always point out to me the idea of source versus content. Many people are hung up defending the Source of the Bible. To me, this is important only in that I believe that a higher source (God, the highest source) exists and desires communion with humanity. That being said, I can also respect many non-believers if they advocate doing what Jesus told us to do and if they are otherwise loving and forgiving towards the many attitudes of smugness, arrogance, and know-it-all beliefs of many believers. By their works(fruits) you shall know them. This morning I listened to some good podcasts.

Several good points were presented.

  • Those who believe what hawking said about a universe who can and will spontaneously create itself from nothing" are in effect believing in a "Virgin Birth" of a universe. The critics will attempt to attack and debunk the "source" of scripture and refute its logic, yet many of the math formulas used by hawking and others to explain how a universe "can and will" create itself from nothing fail to see that their "math scriptures" are also meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

    Another podcast which I found respectable was from Vince Vitale. (You once asked me to find you an honest apologist. Vince and his wife qualify)

    The podcast was titled Is A United Christian Church Possible?

    From the transcript:

    quote:
    Are we willing to fully hear somebody else before we start judging them? So often we talk about people who hold different views from us, but we've never even spoken to those people. We've never actually even gone to the source and asked them, how do you understand this? Have you ever thought about this? How do you interpret this verse of scripture? This is how I've read it. Can you talk to me about how you make sense of these things?
    I just think Jesus is the most amazing model for us. The Bible talks about Him being full of grace and truth. I think it's so often we're so concerned about truth, rightly so, we should be concerned about truth, but we get so caught up in that, that we lose the love. Scripture talks about, "As Christ laid down His life for us, we're to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters."

    And so the question for us is, are truth and love coming together in our lives? Vince actually says this really well. He says that "Truth without love isn't truth and love without truth isn't love." I just think that that has to be wherever you begin, and that has to be where these conversations start.

    Vince Vitale: Yeah, and they are definitely difficult conversations to have. But one of the things I love about The Bible is that I think it speaks clearly and repetitively on the most essential matters of doctrine, and it tends to speak less frequently on matters that are of secondary and tertiary importance. Not to say that those aren't important, but when you talk about the core elements of doctrine when you talk about the physical, literal, miraculous resurrection of Jesus Christ, I don't think someone can read The Bible honestly and say that is not what it's saying. That is what it's clearly saying and not just once, but it has said it repetitively. So we need to do our best to say what are those core issues of faith and then where is there room for reasonable disagreement, not because we allow it, but because The Bible allows for it.

    One passage that I find helpful here is in Galatians 2. I think Paul has been in his ministry for about 17 years, and Paul, Barnabas, and Titus go up to Jerusalem to discuss the commonalities and also the differences between the ministry that they have been doing and the ministry of Peter, James, and John that has been to the Jewish community. Peter, James, and John recognize that Paul has been entrusted with the task of preaching the Gospel to the gentiles just as Peter had been trusted to do so to the Jews. The Bible says, "For God who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised was also at work in me as an apostle to the gentiles," so James, Peter, and John gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship. They agreed that they should go to the gentiles and that they should go to the Jews.

    And then I love this wonderful closing line in the discussions where they're recognizing they're both doing ministry, they're doing it in different contexts, they're doing it in somewhat different ways, but they're coming together. They're extending the right hand of fellowship to each other and then there is this wonderful closing line, "All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along."


    I expect that you agree with Vitale, as you yourself emphasize the message (over the messenger ) The church can and should be unified and of one mind and heart regarding the major issues.
    quote:
    I think the significance of that, to get back to this question of how can we be unified despite difference, it's partly by serving together. It's partly by continuing to remember the poor, remembering the poor physically, also remembering the poor, spiritually. There was one pastor who I had of the church where even among the leadership they had some differing theological opinions, not on core matters of doctrine, but on secondary and tertiary issues.

    I asked him once, "How do you manage to minister together and lead this church together when you actually disagree on some significant important things?" He said to me, "If you do enough mission, there is no time for division." You have to qualify that statement to some extent, but I think there is real truth in it as well. When you are actually missionally aimed as a community in the context of a relationship, you are looking to sacrificially serve people, serve the physical poor, serve the spiritual poor together.

    It's amazing how often you then wind up finding more unity even doctrinally. You find it as you're walking side by side serving people in humility in the sacrificial way that Jesus has asked us to, not primarily by sitting in an ivory tower and doing philosophy together. I'm a philosopher. I'm not disparaging that. I love that, but I think in terms of unity in the church, it has to be done as we serve together.

    Michael Davis:
    I had a conversation with an atheist a while back where he started talking about, "Well, you know there is like 10,000 different denominations in the United States. There is no such thing as the Christian Church," and some of it just kind of popped out of my mind. It was very similar to what you said was. I was like, it's like there is actually really only two groups of Christians. You've got those who believe what Vince just said, which is The Bible is the final authority. I think that the other groups are the people who don't.

    One group worship God as revealed in scripture. And then the other group submit themselves to their own idea of who God is. So if we really look at the Church Universal, there really are just two groups of Christians. It's, am I going to look upon my Bible and am I going to say this is God's word to me, or am I going to look at this Bible, I'm going to pick and choose which elements of it and which parts of it that I like and that is going to be the God I create?
    So I do think that to Vince's point from before, yes, we're going to have differences and we're going to disagree on some things, but ultimately we are unified as the Catholic, the Universal Catholic Church, no, not Roman Catholic, but the Universal Church that we are the core fundamentals is going to be how we're unified.

    Jo Vitale: I love one example of the way that the church, and that we go to has recently started doing this actually on the issue of race. They started conversations with local churches, some of which have predominantly black congregations, some are predominantly white, but they've set up a course called, Conversations where these churches are coming together. And first off, just getting to know each other, sharing meals together and then gradually over the course of that tying together they're journeying and sharing their experiences and just talking about race and weeping together and praying for each other. And just to get everyone in a room together and just to hear from each other, to listen, to ask questions, to understand what somebody else has been through from a different church to you, I think no one comes away from that unchanged and unmoved and not desiring to work towards greater racial unity in this country.

    I think it's beautiful that this Conversations Movement is happening around the question of race. Wouldn't it be amazing to have all sorts of Conversation Movements on other issues that might divide us as well?


    Comments?

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 784 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 12:10 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 786 by ringo, posted 09-07-2019 12:55 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17300
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 786 of 862 (862596)
    09-07-2019 12:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 785 by Thugpreacha
    09-06-2019 1:48 PM


    Re: Heres The Deal: The Clash Of World Views
    Phat writes:

    And you can (and have) found words of wisdom to live by in Matthew 25. jar used to always point out to me the idea of source versus content. Many people are hung up defending the Source of the Bible.


    The source of the Bible is human wisdom. We know that because the same wisdom is available in other scriptures, some of them older than the Bible.

    Phat writes:

    Those who believe what hawking said about a universe who can and will spontaneously create itself from nothing" are in effect believing in a "Virgin Birth" of a universe.


    Rubbish. Spontaneous creation from nothing would be a birth without a virgin.

    Phat writes:

    Comments?


    I wish you'd just put things in your own words.

    “Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
    -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 785 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-06-2019 1:48 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 787 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-08-2019 11:23 AM ringo has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12813
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 787 of 862 (862623)
    09-08-2019 11:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 786 by ringo
    09-07-2019 12:55 PM


    Re: Heres The Deal: The Clash Of World Views
    ringo writes:

    The source of the Bible is human wisdom. We know that because the same wisdom is available in other scriptures, some of them older than the Bible.

    Rubbish. Human wisdom fails to explain the narrative. Do you honestly think that a bunch of writers from among a largely illiterate population each with their own agenda(politically or religiously) compiled these manuscripts? The Bible confirms a human search for God and subsequent contact. jar will trot out his "facts" about different Gods being described, but he is not a trustworthy source since he is a closet secular humanist who only claims Christianity to legitimize his ability to represent it with his faith-killing logic. Whenever you are told to throw God away and use your own human reasoning to summerize the Bible, know that there are principalities and powers with agendas to keep your faith quenched and in a state of doubt. Every Christian knows that the central focus of the books known as the Bible is to lift up Jesus Christ and celebrate the communion between Man and God. If you want storybooks, go find better ones.

    Last I checked, Long John Silver is still available.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 786 by ringo, posted 09-07-2019 12:55 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 788 by NosyNed, posted 09-08-2019 12:53 PM Thugpreacha has responded
     Message 789 by Tangle, posted 09-08-2019 12:58 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
     Message 790 by ringo, posted 09-08-2019 2:30 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    NosyNed
    Member
    Posts: 8860
    From: Canada
    Joined: 04-04-2003
    Member Rating: 4.8


    Message 788 of 862 (862625)
    09-08-2019 12:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 787 by Thugpreacha
    09-08-2019 11:23 AM


    Closeted
    jar will trot out his "facts" about different Gods being described, but he is not a trustworthy source since he is a closet secular humanist

    Funny thing to those of us reading what you and Jar write; he actually quotes the bible to support what he says. We can read things supporting his views.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 787 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-08-2019 11:23 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 794 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-14-2019 4:27 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7068
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.5


    Message 789 of 862 (862626)
    09-08-2019 12:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 787 by Thugpreacha
    09-08-2019 11:23 AM


    Re: Heres The Deal: The Clash Of World Views
    Phat writes:

    Do you honestly think that a bunch of writers from among a largely illiterate population each with their own agenda(politically or religiously) compiled these manuscripts?

    Yes.

    Pretty much all civilisations have invented these stories. They all think theirs is special.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 787 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-08-2019 11:23 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17300
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 790 of 862 (862633)
    09-08-2019 2:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 787 by Thugpreacha
    09-08-2019 11:23 AM


    Re: Heres The Deal: The Clash Of World Views
    Phat writes:

    Do you honestly think that a bunch of writers from among a largely illiterate population each with their own agenda(politically or religiously) compiled these manuscripts?


    It's pretty clear, from the inconsistencies, that that is what happened. Dictation by a flying spook fails to explain the narrative.

    Phat writes:

    The Bible confirms a human search for God and subsequent contact.


    So does every other holy book. "This sentence is true," is not a reliable source of information.

    Phat writes:

    jar will trot out his "facts" about different Gods being described, but he is not a trustworthy source...


    There is no trustworthy source.

    Phat writes:

    ... since he is a closet secular humanist who only claims Christianity....


    An unbiased source is more reliable than a biased one. When assessing the Christian faith, the less Christian the better.

    Phat writes:

    Whenever you are told to throw God away and use your own human reasoning to summerize the Bible...


    I have never been told that. And as I have mentioned countless times, you are the one who throws the Bible away and chooses to embrace the made-up version presented by apologists.

    Phat writes:

    ... there are principalities and powers with agendas to keep your faith quenched and in a state of doubt.


    You really should throw away those childish fairy tales.

    Phat writes:

    Every Christian knows that the central focus of the books known as the Bible is to lift up Jesus Christ and celebrate the communion between Man and God. If you want storybooks, go find better ones.


    I've read lots of better ones.

    Phat writes:

    Last I checked, Long John Silver is still available.


    It is. I have it on my bookshelf. I've read it probably two dozen times, ever since I could read.

    I don't read commentaries about it. Why would I?


    “Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
    -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 787 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-08-2019 11:23 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    Dredge
    Member
    Posts: 1291
    From: Australia
    Joined: 09-06-2016
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 791 of 862 (862833)
    09-13-2019 6:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 783 by jar
    09-06-2019 7:55 AM


    jar writes:

    the fact remains that I AM a Christian


    That joke never grows old - makes me laugh every time I hear it!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 783 by jar, posted 09-06-2019 7:55 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 792 by jar, posted 09-13-2019 6:24 PM Dredge has not yet responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31288
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 792 of 862 (862835)
    09-13-2019 6:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 791 by Dredge
    09-13-2019 6:04 PM


    Try ethics. Who knows, you might even like it.
    My pleasure.

    Yet the fact remains I am a Christian, Jesus was not a Christian and the Nicene Creed says what it says.

    AbE: Also I do not take things out of context like so many "Biblical Christians" seem to do.

    Why not quote the whole post?

    quote:
    Yet the fact remains that the Roman Catholic Canon is but one of many Canons.

    And the fact remains that I AM a Christian and so have no anti-Christian Phobia.


    Edited by jar, : see AbE:


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 791 by Dredge, posted 09-13-2019 6:04 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 793 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-14-2019 4:22 PM jar has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12813
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 793 of 862 (862857)
    09-14-2019 4:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 792 by jar
    09-13-2019 6:24 PM


    Re: Try ethics. Who knows, you might even like it.
    Yeah yeah yeah. You have a legal claim to such a title, I know. Yet you (and ringo) think that all (or a majority of apologists) are dishonest. I might ask what it is about you that makes you so honest...? I personally think you lean more towards defining the mission of Jesus as a reformation of judaism and that you have a motive to point out the errors in Biblical Christianity and guide people into thinking that it is simply misinterpreted and actually *should* be an extension of Judaism. You would then ask me "What Does The Evidence Show?"

    Lets see what the apologists reply:

    quote:
    Nearly everyone who has been a part of a small-group Bible study or Bible discussion group has heard these words spoken: “To me, the verse means. . . .” Sometimes this is said innocently, and all the speaker intends is to convey what he thinks the author of the text is teaching to all people. All too often, however, people who say such things are actually reflecting the radical subjectivism to which they hold, whether consciously or unconsciously. In such cases, the person assumes that the verse can mean one thing to him and something completely different to someone else without either of them being wrong.

    Such a radically subjective view ends up divorcing all meaning from the text. If the text can mean many different things at the same time, it can mean anything, and if it can mean anything, it really means nothing. Scripture becomes, as Martin Luther put it, a wax nose that can be shaped into whatever form the interpreter likes. When this happens, the interpreter cannot be corrected by the text; rather, the interpreter becomes lord over the text.


    So it seems that when you (and to a similar degree ringo) "teach" scripture, you have it describe a different "God" than the mainstream apologists do. Dare I say that you are at odds with the global majority of those who call themselves Christians. You are urging people to simply read the text, which is normally commendable, but I find it a problem when you and the mainstream Christianity disagree. Surely *they* are not all carny hucksters. And if so, how do we know that what you are selling (Personal Responsibility and secular humanistic do-goodedness) is the right product to be pushing? And i see that here at EvC you have a hungry secular humanist audience who wants nothing to do with an actual God marketed by reformed Calvinists. You will sell a lot of what you write here....but only here.

    Also I do not take things out of context like so many "Biblical Christians" seem to do
    I will admit that you have attempted to teach me to read the text and decide for myself what it means rather than buying the idea sold by the Evangelicals...err I mean Hucksters. I also rely on Gods inspiration, however. You never seem to even mention that.

    Jesus was not a Christian
    Point blank question: Was Jesus God? Is Jesus God? What does the evidence show? If you are a Christian (or even a good Jew) you will have a definite answer. You likely will try and frame the issue by saying that your personal beliefs are irrelevant. I call bullshit.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 792 by jar, posted 09-13-2019 6:24 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 796 by jar, posted 09-14-2019 4:46 PM Thugpreacha has responded
     Message 798 by ringo, posted 09-15-2019 2:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12813
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 794 of 862 (862858)
    09-14-2019 4:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 788 by NosyNed
    09-08-2019 12:53 PM


    Re: Closeted
    Ned writes:

    Funny thing to those of us reading what you and Jar write; he actually quotes the bible to support what he says. We can read things supporting his views.

    Point taken. I have a worthy opponent, though he himself claims to be Christian. Which leads me to wonder why we disagree...shouldn't we have the same "Spirit"? What are your basic beliefs, Ned...are you an atheist or will you simply claim to be a critical thinker? Don't get me wrong...I respect your reply, even if it gives more credibility to my opponent than to myself. I need to ask myself who I represent and who I intend to represent. Thanks for your criticism.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 788 by NosyNed, posted 09-08-2019 12:53 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12813
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 795 of 862 (862860)
    09-14-2019 4:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 781 by Dredge
    09-06-2019 1:36 AM


    I AM a Christian
    jar writes:

    None of the Bible comes from God unless the God is intentionally supplying false and misleading information. There is no other explanation possible since there are numerous examples of stories that evolve as they are retold and also examples of direct mutually exclusive accounts of supposedly the same event. Over the years I've covered many such examples here. Two clear examples are from the New Testament; the evolution of the Great Commission and the encounter of Saul on the road to Damascus.


    Dredge writes:

    The fact that you’ve put so much effort into debunking the Bible and its supernatural contents strongly suggests you are motivated by some gigantic hang-up about Christianity. Maybe you were abused by some fag priest when you were ten. Who knows?


    Additional evidence that the Bible is a creation of humans is the fact that there is no such thing as "The Bible™" but rather a whole set of canons ranging from the smallest that contains only the first five books and none of the New Testament to the largest that contains over 80 books.

    Dredge writes:

    News flash!! God’s official organisation on earth - the Catholic Church - defined exactly what the Bible contains about 1500 years ago.

    jar writes:

    But if there is a Heaven I am very sure Christians will be a very small minority there and that there will be far more atheist, agnostics, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews. Taoists as well as followers of Confucius and Mencius in attendance.


    Very sure? Oh, that's right...God saves everybody! I forgot! Doh.....
    None of the Bible comes from God unless the God is intentionally supplying false and misleading information. There is no other explanation possible ...
    Quite sure about that too, I see. Let's summarize: You are "very sure" that Heaven, if Heaven exists...will have more of the people who never believed but simply did what is right, correct? I hope you are right....but I am skeptical. Also, you are quite sure that "the Bible" was uninspired and did *not* come from God. Which must mean that He either used some other method or that He never communes with humanity. Quite a powerful statement from a man who claims to be a Christian.
    In all seriousness, though....what Spook are you representing?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 781 by Dredge, posted 09-06-2019 1:36 AM Dredge has not yet responded

      
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