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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2178 of 3207 (861906)
08-28-2019 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2177 by AZPaul3
08-28-2019 11:14 PM


Re: When specifics are required
But the crazy old man WOULD know it was real even if he couldn't make anyone else believe him, and it WOULD matter to the crazy old man even if he thinks it wouldn't. But sure, that's OK until it actually happens which it probably won't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2177 by AZPaul3, posted 08-28-2019 11:14 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2179 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 2:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2183 of 3207 (861916)
08-29-2019 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2182 by Stile
08-29-2019 8:51 AM


God as Nonphysical, as Spirit, as Mind
But our current best-known-method restricts itself to rational analysis.
If rational analysis cannot identify the things you're talking about... then (according to our best-known-method) - my conclusion still stands.
Are you saying that there is no *rational* way to identify the reality of minds? Human minds? And what does "rational" mean in this context?
My point was that a mind is nonphysical and science only has means to recognize physicality. If human mental activity produces some form of energy, electrical energy perhaps, since our minds are intimately connected to our physical brains in this physical universe, that activity might be detected, but the mind itself won't be detected. And if God is Mind (Spirit is also nonphysical) since He doesn't need a brain for His mental activity, not being Himself physical, I don't see how there could ever be a scientific means to detect God.
The Bible suggests that the only way we can know God is through our own spirits.* We were originally designed to know God. The Fall interfered with that so that mostly our spirits are now dysfunctional. Some of us may be able to detect the spirit world of angels and demons, but not God Himself.** Regeneration through Christ, or being born again, is the beginning of the recovery of our original spiritual sense though it won't be perfected in this life. Many who are born again also have a heightened awareness of the spirit world but since it's considered to be dangerous since demons are enemies of humanity and seek to deceive us, attempting to cultivate it is strongly discouraged.
This isn't a scientific point and I'm not proposing discussing it beyond this. And all a scientific orientation could make of it anyway is that we are *crazy.*
---------------
* We know another human mind through our own minds too, right? We don't detect another's mind through any physical medium, but directly by communication with their minds. Right? We can talk in cyberspace because words are how we communicate, but words have no physicality either except in the literal sense of being marks on a page or in cyberspace: that is, what words really are, which is communication of concepts, is unknowable by all means except through the recognition of our own minds. And we know it's imperfect too, but nevertheless there is no other way to know another's mind except through such communications.
** As I was exploring some Buddhist concepts recently it kept being impressed upon me that Buddhist practitioners may know the spirit world of angels and demons but they are very clear that they do not acknowledge a Creator God. I take this as evidence that God is not knowable through our fallen spiritual faculty.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2182 by Stile, posted 08-29-2019 8:51 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2190 of 3207 (861935)
08-29-2019 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2189 by AZPaul3
08-29-2019 1:33 PM


How do you test for the existence of invisible thinking creatures?
The "luminiferous aether" was considered to be a physical thing though, wasn't it? You can do experiments to verify or falsify something that is physical if you know something about its properties and behavior, which would be predictable. But if "gods" -- as opposed to the one Creator God -- are purely spiritual beings, like minds, there might be no way to detect them by any physical tests whatever. If they have some degree of physicality -- though the Creator God does not -- perhaps a test could be devised to detect them. But it would have to take into account that they are thinking creatures that move around at will and would do their utmost to defeat your tests. Take all that into account and good luck.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2189 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 1:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2191 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 2:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2192 of 3207 (861940)
08-29-2019 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2191 by AZPaul3
08-29-2019 2:07 PM


How to devise a test for the existence of an invisible living thinking creature
So you decide in advance that there are no gods so that the very idea of trying to devise the kind of test I've suggested would be required to detect the existence of gods won't detect gods because they don't exist, so there's no point in trying to find out if they exist, or devising a test for the purpose, and then you go on to challenge me to devise a way to gather the evidence although I just suggested the only way I think could gather it.
Somebody could devise such a test I assume, not I, not you, but someone.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2191 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 2:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2193 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 4:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2200 of 3207 (861961)
08-29-2019 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2193 by AZPaul3
08-29-2019 4:07 PM


A test for the existence of an invisible living thinking devious creature
But your point that physical experiments may not work because gods are ghosts and use majik is rejected *unless* you can first show that ghosts and majik exist. If someone can show that then the possibility of gods being and using such things could be entertained.
But you are misrpresenting what I said. I compared their nonphysicality to minds -- thoughts, mental phenomena, spirit etc. You surely don't claim these things don't exist. If there are beings that are pure spirit (I think the Creator God is the only Being who is pure Spirit while the lesser "gods" have some degree of physicality since they can "manifest" in visible form at times), since you know that mental/spiritual things exist, we experience them every day, then you have some idea what to look for.
You say there have been billions of "tests" for such things that have come up null. But I doubt you have any idea what "tests" have been done OR that they've all come up null. If these are finite beings that think and act you would have to take into account that they could act to evade your tests. That would have to be one major part of the definition of what you are testing for, and if you don't have that in mind at all your "tests" aren't likely to have any relevance or usefulness at all.
I've already conceded that there is no way to concoct a scientific test for the Creator God at all because He has no physicality whatever, and our sciences can only test for physical things. I've also said, however, that He has given us plenty of evidence, described in the Bible and witnessed by hordes of people, so anyone who is serious about knowing God can find Him there. He has no interest in proving Himself to us, He wants to be known through our spiritual regeneration and belief based on witness evidence.
But what we MIGHT be able to test for is the "gods" or demons. The "gods" described in the Bible are demons, finite beings that have no love for humanity. there's no point in devising a test that doesn't take this into account, you'll just be looking for a figment of your own imagination. \
The point is that, as of now, all the billions of tests, the billions of searches, all the millennia of looking has resulted in no gods.
In fact many have found not only the Creator God but plenty of the lesser "gods" or fallen angels, otherwise known as demons. You just refuse to believe their testimony.
Anyway, if one seriously wants to find out if "gods" exist, you have to start with a definition of what you're looking for, which definition would include:
  • Invisibility under normal circumstances
  • Able to "manifest" visibly if they choose to do so.
  • So they may have SOME degree of physicality in themselves you could figure out how to detect
  • For instance there have been many reports of people feeling an "electricity" in the vicinity of such beings
  • They think and plot against humanity so you have to be prepared for all kinds of deceptions they may use against you.
  • They MAY possess human beings, and sometimes animals too, when they can. The possession may be only partial so that they aren't affecting major parts of the personality, or it may take over the mind and effectively determine how the person behaves.
  • They may "manifest" to some people and not to others. They aren't very likely to manifest to you because your disbelief in their existence suits them better than if you knew they are real.
  • They operate as hierarchical armies, all under the authority of higher-ups
If the scientific "tests" haven't been taking such characteristics into account they aren't really tests for the existence of "gods."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2193 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 4:07 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2202 of 3207 (861963)
08-29-2019 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2201 by AZPaul3
08-29-2019 8:47 PM


Re: How to devise a test for the existence of an invisible living thinking creature
The gospels were written within years, decades at most, of Jesus' death on the cross, and all but one were written by eyewitnesses, the other was written by someone intimately familiar with the eyewitnesses. They all compared notes and used each others' work because they were writing for people who weren't there at the time, different groups of people, and wanted to include as much as they could come up with.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2203 of 3207 (861964)
08-29-2019 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2196 by AZPaul3
08-29-2019 6:45 PM


Re: How to devise a test for the existence of an invisible living thinking creature
Funny how you want the UNBELIEVERS to testify of Jesus and His miracles, but the thing is when people believe in them their testimony is the testimony of believers and you won't take them seriously at that point. Catch 22.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2196 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 6:45 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2204 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 10:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 2205 of 3207 (861967)
08-29-2019 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2204 by AZPaul3
08-29-2019 10:50 PM


Re: How to devise a test for the existence of an invisible living thinking creature
Good grief, the early church fathers testify to the authenticity of the gospel accounts, and down through the centuries we have lots of believers who have written about them.
There are over five thousand "fragments" of the Bible from the tenth century on. The Bibles get destroyed from use so we can't expect really old ones to survive. There are a few that go back to the early centuries which are understood by the scholars I happen to trust (and there are lots of others I don't trust) to have been tampered with by early heretics. There are a few whole manuscripts from those early centuries and the reason they are whole and not fragments is that Spirit led Christians recognized them as bogus so they didn't have a chance to get destroyed by use. Unfortunately today they are used in all our Bibles except the King James, because the false scholars convinced everybody they are legitimate.
There is a science of textual reconstruction scholarship that has shown that the later fragments all support each other and the text of the original manuscripts, there simply is not the doubt about them you would like to believe is the case. This science notes copy errors and correlates the whole mass of texts to arrive at this conclusion of their authenticity.
I understand you are a scientist but so are all these people who study the various fragments of the Bible text.
And perhaps I missed it but I don't recall your ever identifying your science.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2204 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 10:50 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 2208 of 3207 (861982)
08-30-2019 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2207 by AZPaul3
08-30-2019 3:03 AM


Re: How to devise a test for the existence of an invisible living thinking creature
GDR said you were discounting the "evidence" but you've changed the subject to say you are discounting Martians rather than the evidence for Martians. IS there any evidence for Martians?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2207 by AZPaul3, posted 08-30-2019 3:03 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 2274 of 3207 (862568)
09-06-2019 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 2272 by Tangle
09-06-2019 2:56 PM


Re: When specifics are required
Phat writes:
Many many people claim to have been "saved".
Yeh, they'll be the idiots. It's a truly stupid conceit, even your bible tells you that nobody can know that.
That is not true. Being saved is the same thing as having eternal life and John gives us information for the purpose of knowing that we have eternal life:
1Jo 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2280 of 3207 (862635)
09-08-2019 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1837 by AZPaul3
08-06-2019 3:46 AM


Re: Protestant punishment of heretics?
You called me "ignorant" of Protestant persecutions on a par with the Catholic Inquisition, you cite a book on the subject which I'd never heard of. It's a piece of Catholic Apologetics of course. Most of the historians quoted are Roman Catholics, and I had to look up a bunch of them to find that out. One -- Stoddard -- was a Protestant who converted to Catholicism.
I wrote to a Reformed site for information about this book and they did not answer me. I looked at Amazon to see if they sell it and what reviews there might be of it, found none. I could continue searching such sites I suppose but instead I read some of the first chapter myself. It's all quotes about how "intolerant" the Protestant Reformers were of Catholicism. Oh dear, they were "intolerant" of the ANTICHRIST? That is what they determined the papacy to be you know. And it's all nothing more than brief quotes to that effect with no references to historical instances of such intolerance so that one might get some idea of what they have in mind. Then there's Comte who baldly declares the RCC to be the legimate early Church despite the Reformation's work that exposed it as the heir of the Roman pagan religions and Antichrist. abe: Comte also calls the Protestants the "aggressors" against the RCC which is some kind of joke. Various Roman Catholics were protesting the corruptions of the RCC and after much study began to realize that there is nothing Christian at all about the RCC, that the whole thing is a pagan Antichrist superstition. This is apparently what Comte calls "aggression?" Right, the way the courts are the aggressors against criminals. Wow.
At least as far as I've read there is nothing to suggest anything on the level of the Inquisition with its tortures and murders.
In England there were many Catholic plots against the monarchy so that Elizabeth I and King James and others had to have a regiment of bodyguards. Such plotters were often beheaded. Is that "intolerance?" Well, the RCC thinks so, although it is in reality justice against treasonous plotters. Pope John Paul was allowed to go to England and treat such traitors as "martyrs." He should have been banded from the country.
I may try to read more of that Antichrist-defending book, but don't know how far I'll get. You really should prove your accusation by quoting some part of it that actually proves anything by Protestants on the level of the Inquisition.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1837 by AZPaul3, posted 08-06-2019 3:46 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2319 of 3207 (869419)
12-30-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2318 by Sarah Bellum
12-30-2019 10:43 AM


Re: The peril of proof texts.
So let's see, if our reason is "offended by" the idea of the supernatural, then we throw out those parts of the Bible, as Jefferson did. So we'll never know if the supernatural is real in relation to its events, and the Bible is one of the few documents that reveal it to us. That's a certain way to keep us grounded in ignorance I'd say.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2318 by Sarah Bellum, posted 12-30-2019 10:43 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2320 by ringo, posted 12-30-2019 10:57 AM Faith has replied
 Message 2322 by jar, posted 12-30-2019 11:06 AM Faith has replied
 Message 2329 by Sarah Bellum, posted 12-30-2019 1:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2321 of 3207 (869421)
12-30-2019 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2320 by ringo
12-30-2019 10:57 AM


Re: The peril of proof texts.
Actually they don't, they may assert it but they don't reveal it. Not that it would matter anyway since the Bible doesn't have to be the only source of such information. But the Bible specifically describes events in terms of the supernatural AND it reports multiple witnesses of such events besides claiming to be written by direct witnesses. I don't care if you want to believe other accounts of the supernatural, but my point here is very simple. We're talking about the Bible only and one of its elements that "reason" tends to discard is its supernatural accounts, Thomas Jefferson being one famous supposed rationalist who discarded them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2320 by ringo, posted 12-30-2019 10:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2323 of 3207 (869425)
12-30-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 2322 by jar
12-30-2019 11:06 AM


Re: The peril of proof texts.
the Bible reveals the parting of the Red Sea, the bringing to life of a dead child, the virgin conception of the Messiah, the turning of water into wine, the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, the instantaneous transportation of Philip to talk with the Ethiopian eunuch, and that's just a few off the top of my head.,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2322 by jar, posted 12-30-2019 11:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2324 by jar, posted 12-30-2019 11:11 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2325 of 3207 (869428)
12-30-2019 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2324 by jar
12-30-2019 11:11 AM


Re: The peril of proof texts.
It describes them within a historical framework. If you want to get all silly semantic about it I don't care, but that's what I mean by its revealing them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2324 by jar, posted 12-30-2019 11:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2326 by jar, posted 12-30-2019 11:21 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 2328 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2019 12:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
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