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Author Topic:   Conversion "Therapy" -- torture the gay away ...?
RAZD
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Posts: 20120
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 1 of 10 (862405)
09-04-2019 4:57 PM


quote:
Conversion Therapy Founder Comes Out Publicly as Gay After 20 Years of Leading Homophobic Program

McKrae Game founded Hope for Wholeness, a faith-based conversion therapy program in South Carolina, in 1999

McKrae Game, the man who founded one of the largest conversion therapy programs in the country and led the homophobic organization for 20 years, has come out as gay.

Back in 1999, Game, 51, started Truth Ministry, a faith-based conversion therapy program in South Carolina, which aims to suppress or completely change a person’s LGBTQ+ sexuality through counseling, interventions, or ministry. The organization was eventually rebranded and renamed as Hope for Wholeness in 2013.

Two decades after its founding, however, Game — who once vehemently preached that being gay would send someone to hell — has now come out as gay to the world.

His decision to go public with his truth comes a little over two years after he was abruptly fired from the organization that he spent a great deal of his life dedicated to. In those 20 years working for them, Game also wrestled with his true identity.

“I struggled more so trying to deny [my attraction to men] than being able to accept my attractions and say, ‘I am a gay man,'” he said in a recent interview with the Post and Courier. “I was a hot mess for 26 years and I have more peace now than I ever did.”

... I believe ex-gay ministry is a lie; conversion therapy is not just a lie, it’s very harmful,” he continued. “[Especially] when it takes it to the point of, ‘You need to change and here’s a curriculum, here’s how you do it, and you haven’t changed yet, keep at it, it’ll happen.'”

“I was a religious zealot that hurt people,” Game explained to the outlet. “People said they attempted suicide over me and the things I said to them. People, I know, are in therapy because of me. Why would I want that to continue?”

“So much of it is trying to change people and fix people. It’s a lie and we have harmed generations of people,” he said. “We’ve done wrong, we need to admit our wrongs, and do what we can do to stop the wrong from continuing to happen.”


Mental torture of people to try to "convert" them only makes them more distraught and suicidal, because it doesn't change the nature of the people, only their perceptions of themselves.

Sad.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 09-05-2019 9:53 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 7 by ramoss, posted 09-06-2019 10:40 PM RAZD has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2 of 10 (862411)
09-04-2019 7:19 PM


Amen Brother...Preach the GOSPEL
Sins are no body's business except God & the sinner except with the CCoI Sins are BIG Business.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
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Posts: 3712
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 3 of 10 (862421)
09-05-2019 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
09-04-2019 7:19 PM


Re: Amen Brother...Preach the GOSPEL
Sins are no body's business except God & the sinner except with the CCoI Sins are BIG Business.

I agree in principle and based on the definition of "sin" as being a purely religious concept which has nothing to do with morality except for when particular immoral acts can be paired up with particular sins. Sin only affects the individual "sinner" whereas immorality affects others as well as society. All of which can easily embroil us in convoluted discussions that get us nowhere. But that's not what I replied to talk about.

 
It turns out that "true Christians" operate on a double standard. Let me start with a true story.

I was involved with an extended email correspondence (for about 20 years overall off-and-on) with Bill, a local "creation science" activist, a legend in his own mind. Bill is a pathological liar and thoroughly dishonest, basically the poster child for the very worst qualities of creationists. If I may appear to have very little tolerance for typical dishonest creationist BS tactics, Bill is largely to blame for my attitude.

At one point, another "true Christian" came in contact with me and presented himself as a very good friend of Bill. I ended up describing what Bill had done and said. The evidence was so massive that this friend had to admit that Bill was doing grave wrong and was acting directly in conflict with Christian teachings (AKA "sinning" such as lying). Since I attributed Bill's freedom to sin to his Christian peers not knowing what he was doing, I urged his "best friend" to talk with Bill to warning him of the danger he was placing his soul into, that "best friend" absolutely refused to do so, not even to mention to Bill that he might be doing wrong. He claimed that Christian doctrine forbade him from speaking to Bill about this, not even mention it to him, because that is only between Bill and God and even Bill's "best friend" is forbidden to whisper even one word of warning that Bill might be going astray in any way.

So there's the one standard that a "Christian's" sin is solely between him and God and nobody else can even attempt to warn him of his going astray (not that God will ever give him notification of that fact until after it's too late and that Christian must stand in Judgement -- "But I had no idea I was straying!" "No defense!").

The other standard is that they get very deeply into everybody else's business in the most intrusive manners possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 09-04-2019 7:19 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 4 of 10 (862443)
09-05-2019 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-04-2019 4:57 PM


RAZD writes:

Back in 1999, Game, 51, started Truth Ministry, a faith-based conversion therapy program in South Carolina, which aims to suppress or completely change a person’s LGBTQ+ sexuality through counseling, interventions, or ministry. The organization was eventually rebranded and renamed as Hope for Wholeness in 2013.

No respect, and lots of anger towards the man at that stage in his life.

“I struggled more so trying to deny [my attraction to men] than being able to accept my attractions and say, ‘I am a gay man,'” he said in a recent interview with the Post and Courier. “I was a hot mess for 26 years and I have more peace now than I ever did.”

... I believe ex-gay ministry is a lie; conversion therapy is not just a lie, it’s very harmful,” he continued. “[Especially] when it takes it to the point of, ‘You need to change and here’s a curriculum, here’s how you do it, and you haven’t changed yet, keep at it, it’ll happen.'”

“I was a religious zealot that hurt people,” Game explained to the outlet. “People said they attempted suicide over me and the things I said to them. People, I know, are in therapy because of me. Why would I want that to continue?”

“So much of it is trying to change people and fix people. It’s a lie and we have harmed generations of people,” he said. “We’ve done wrong, we need to admit our wrongs, and do what we can do to stop the wrong from continuing to happen.”

That's incredible, really.
The turn around is extreme.

If genuine - I have huge respect and admiration for the courage this man is now showing.
Not many people are capable of following love through to make such a change to personal opinion and actions.

It is so extreme, it kind of raises suspicions of "how genuine" - but that is between Game and himself.
If his words and actions continue to follow this new path - I will have nothing but support and admiration for such a model human being.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2019 4:57 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 09-06-2019 9:28 AM Stile has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20120
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 5 of 10 (862534)
09-06-2019 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
09-05-2019 9:53 AM


atonement needed, maybe prosecution
“I was a religious zealot that hurt people,” Game explained to the outlet. “People said they attempted suicide over me and the things I said to them. People, I know, are in therapy because of me. Why would I want that to continue?”

... “We’ve done wrong, we need to admit our wrongs, and do what we can do to stop the wrong from continuing to happen.”

It's nice that he wants to stop this horrid process now, but what I want to know is how he will atone for the deaths and misery he has caused, not just to the people he "counseled" but to their families and friends? How will he stop others from continuing this horrid process?

If he is the cause of suicides, then isn't there some legal issue here: there is a case in the news where a girl goaded a boy to suicide, and she is being prosecuted ...

quote:
Cops: Mass. girl, 18, encouraged boy to take his life

BOSTON - An 18-year-old Massachusetts girl is charged with involuntary manslaughter after authorities say she encouraged a male friend to commit suicide in 2014, reports CBS Boston.

The Bristol District Attorney's Office told CBS Boston Michelle Carter was indicted on February 5 after a lengthy investigation found she "strongly influenced" Roy's decision to kill himself.


I await further news.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 09-05-2019 9:53 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 09-06-2019 10:12 AM RAZD has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 6 of 10 (862538)
09-06-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
09-06-2019 9:28 AM


Re: atonement needed, maybe prosecution
RAZD writes:

It's nice that he wants to stop this horrid process now, but what I want to know is how he will atone for the deaths and misery he has caused...

Fair enough.
Me, personally, I don't care much for judgements of "atonement" - too subjective and personally-made-up, to me.
That is - perhaps there is something I would consider is good enough "atonement" for him to do.
Perhaps you don't agree, and think he should do something else.
Perhaps others disagree with both of us and think he should do other things still...

To me, there is no acceptable path for you and I and "others" to feel okay with his past.
I never will.
I will continue to condemn his past forever.

But I won't let that stop me from allowing him to move forward - as long as his "moving forward" doesn't involve hurting others.

...not just to the people he "counseled" but to their families and friends? How will he stop others from continuing this horrid process?

I think putting such a thing on his shoulders alone is a bit much.

I think it would be better to ask: How will we all stop others from continuing this horrid process?
To think that one man should be responsible for stopping such a thing sends the wrong message. (In my opinion.)

What will he do to contribute?
Again - I don't really care to identify specifics. As long as he stops contributing in the opposite direction - the rest is up to all of us - equally.
And him coming out and saying the things he's said - that's more power and has done more "to stop this" than I have ever done in my life. Therefore - he's already ahead of me.

If he is the cause of suicides, then isn't there some legal issue here: there is a case in the news where a girl goaded a boy to suicide, and she is being prosecuted ...

I am not against legal action against the man in any way.
If there's a case, I think it should be pursued. In that sense - I support legal action against him.

We are all responsible for our actions and how they effect others.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 09-06-2019 9:28 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 09-07-2019 8:34 AM Stile has responded

    
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3120
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 7 of 10 (862577)
09-06-2019 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-04-2019 4:57 PM


Someone I knew was forced to go to a 'conversion therapy' camp when they were 16 by their parents. It was a religious oriented one. (That was about 20 years go now, and it was south carolina, so I am wondering if it was this one or not)

She was in camp with 12 other people. They used aversion therapy, shock therapy, baptismal font to pray the gay away (immersion into cold water underwater until almost drowned) . When she was living with me at about 3 or 4 years ago, one of the people that went there died of an OD. At that point, out of the 13 folks that went to that session, 7 were dead. There were 5 over doeses, and 2 suicides. I know for many years she was highly suicidal... although she recovered and now is leading a productive life.

One thing the camp did not do is change her orientation. She's still as gay as ever, and flaming at that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2019 4:57 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 09-07-2019 8:47 AM ramoss has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20120
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 8 of 10 (862584)
09-07-2019 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
09-06-2019 10:12 AM


Re: atonement needed, maybe prosecution
I think putting such a thing on his shoulders alone is a bit much.

It's a start. Personally I think this abuse of children is as horrific as the priest molestation issue, hushed up by churches and complicit parents and congregations that want to believe two false beliefs:

  1. that homosexuality is bad, "unnatural," and
  2. that it can be "cured" (or at least hidden back in the closets)

We know it is "natural" because other species show similar behavior ... the definition of natural: behavior found in nature.

We also know that your sexual identity is in your genetic/development bones, that there are zero incidents of it being "cured" by any means.

But I won't let that stop me from allowing him to move forward - as long as his "moving forward" doesn't involve hurting others.

But that path is not his alone to make, there are parents and families and friends - the collateral damage - caused by his tormenting these children sent to him at his solicitation. Parents and families of suicide victims could sue him and the others he worked with in court. This would make the issue more public, and likely bring out instances of more victims.

And him coming out and saying the things he's said - that's more power and has done more "to stop this" than I have ever done in my life. Therefore - he's already ahead of me.

But he created the problem in the first place, his effort "to stop this" is only part of undoing (if that is possible now) what he has done.

You haven't robbed a bank either, so you aren't responsible for bank robbery and don't have to atone for it. You're further ahead from the start.

I am not against legal action against the man in any way.
If there's a case, I think it should be pursued. In that sense - I support legal action against him.

We are all responsible for our actions and how they effect others.

And we are responsible as a society for dealing appropriately with those who misbehave, and for taking care of the victims of misbehavior. That's why we have laws against abuse and discrimination, laws to enforce or modify when necessary to reflect our social morality.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 09-06-2019 10:12 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Stile, posted 09-09-2019 8:56 AM RAZD has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20120
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 9 of 10 (862585)
09-07-2019 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ramoss
09-06-2019 10:40 PM


the sad fallout from Conversion "Therapy"
... forced to go to a 'conversion therapy' camp when they were 16 by their parents. ...

She was in camp with 12 other people. They used aversion therapy, shock therapy, baptismal font to pray the gay away (immersion into cold water underwater until almost drowned) . When she was living with me at about 3 or 4 years ago, one of the people that went there died of an OD. At that point, out of the 13 folks that went to that session, 7 were dead. There were 5 over doeses, and 2 suicides. I know for many years she was highly suicidal... although she recovered and now is leading a productive life.

This makes me sad/furious, this toll on young lives. The parents believed - were told by their church - that conversion was possible, while the evidence shows this is no more possible than to change the color of your skin.

One thing the camp did not do is change her orientation. She's still as gay as ever, and flaming at that.

Indeed. It may even make some more "flaming" is response, more convinced of her nature, that it survived this torment.

... There were 5 over doeses, and 2 suicides. ...

Greater than 50% of the children killed by this therapy. This is horrific.

Turning to drugs to escape the torment is a form of mental suicide (escape) imho. What is needed is remedial therapy and restitution.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ramoss, posted 09-06-2019 10:40 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3846
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 10 of 10 (862647)
09-09-2019 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
09-07-2019 8:34 AM


Re: atonement needed, maybe prosecution
RAZD writes:

It's a start.

I agree. It's the start of saying "this guy should do something about it!" instead of saying "we should all do something about it!"

Why shouldn't all of us participate in the prevention of such evil?

RAZD writes:

Personally I think this abuse of children is as horrific as the priest molestation issue, hushed up by churches and complicit parents and congregations that want to believe two false beliefs:

  1. that homosexuality is bad, "unnatural," and
  2. that it can be "cured" (or at least hidden back in the closets)

We know it is "natural" because other species show similar behavior ... the definition of natural: behavior found in nature.
We also know that your sexual identity is in your genetic/development bones, that there are zero incidents of it being "cured" by any means.

I completely agree.

But that path is not his alone to make

His path moving forward is always his alone to make. As it is for each and every one of us.
You cannot change this for him anymore than you can change it for yourself.

there are parents and families and friends - the collateral damage - caused by his tormenting these children sent to him at his solicitation.

Of course.
Again - why should "he" do something about this instead of "we?"
Why not "we?"

Parents and families of suicide victims could sue him and the others he worked with in court. This would make the issue more public, and likely bring out instances of more victims.

Sounds like a great idea to me - as long as those parents and families of suicide victims are willing.

But he created the problem in the first place, his effort "to stop this" is only part of undoing (if that is possible now) what he has done.

Of course - which is why parents and families of suicide victims should sue him.
This is not a reason, however, why you and I should not do anything and leave it up to him to correct things.
This is not a reason why "he should do more!" instead of "we should do more!"

You haven't robbed a bank either, so you aren't responsible for bank robbery and don't have to atone for it. You're further ahead from the start.

And yet, I still think I should participate in protecting banks from being robbed.
I don't think it we should focus on only saying ex-bank-robbers should prevent such things.

And we are responsible as a society for dealing appropriately with those who misbehave, and for taking care of the victims of misbehavior. That's why we have laws against abuse and discrimination, laws to enforce or modify when necessary to reflect our social morality.

I agree.
That's all I'm saying.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 09-07-2019 8:34 AM RAZD has not yet responded

    
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