|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,771 Year: 4,028/9,624 Month: 899/974 Week: 226/286 Day: 33/109 Hour: 3/3 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Stories about prayer | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4441 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
You would think an all powerful god would provide evidence that could not be mistaken for anything else. Everyone is left guessing what this god wants.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
|
Tanypteryx writes: You would think an all powerful god would provide evidence that could not be mistaken for anything else. Everyone is left guessing what this god wants. It leads to a very big argument against God. If *I* was all-powerful, and created tiny-beings and wanted to be involved in their life and help them:-I would want to give them clear direction -I would not want to confuse them or leave doubt that may possibly lead them down an incorrect path -I would want them to have tools to correctly identify the reality I created around them -I would NOT want to play some "tee-hee" game about keeping my existence a mystery to see who may and who may not "believe in" me. What does this even do other than feed the ego of a child-like being? Therefore, if *I* would do things better, and this makes God out to be a child and God is supposed to be "very good" and "cares about us," then:1. God does not exist. or 2. God exists, but is not all powerful - He helps us as much as He can, but is not capable of getting around these seemingly-childish games. or 3. God exists, but is not "very good" - He is child-like (or possibly malevolent) and enjoys playing with us for one reason or another. It no longer leaves room for an "all powerful" being who "loves humans."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It might be an argument about some gods but I don't see how it is an argument about GOD.
Consider the God found in Genesis 1. That God creates simply by an act of will, and creates once then moves on to the next creation. That God has no contact with any of the creation and looks on all of them equally and judges the work good. But that God is aloof and separate. It would not care what the creation thought.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You would think an all powerful god would provide evidence that could not be mistaken for anything else. Everyone is left guessing what this god wants. I don't know who this "everyone" is who is "left guessing." The Bible really doesn't leave us in the dark at all, but if you want to know the answer to questions about Him you have to BELIEVE what it says. That's "what He wants" and He's very clear about that. You all are looking into your own minds and into worldly assumptions to find the answer to questions you can't find that way. I mean you, Stile, jar and others on this thread.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
remind us of the construct again?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
jar writes: Consider the God found in Genesis 1. That God creates simply by an act of will, and creates once then moves on to the next creation. That God has no contact with any of the creation and looks on all of them equally and judges the work good. But that God is aloof and separate. It would not care what the creation thought. How is this not equivalent to a God that exists, but is not "very good" towards humans?Which is possibility #3 I explained above. I think we agree, and we're just describing the same thing differently.My phrasing may have been unclear, but point #3 is intended to include the situation you're describing above.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What you said was, "Critics will say that we believers would be reprobates without Him...whereas *they* would still do the right thing...." (Message 54). That seems to separate the critics from the believers.
In this case, the critics I was referring to were other believers. Phat writes:
There really is though. There's you and the apologists that you follow and the others who follow the same apologists. If you really did have your own ideas as to what's real, you wouldn't all be parroting the same party line. And there is no collective *we*.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
We unbelievers actually have a higher opinion of you believers than you have of yourselves. I wouldn't go patting myself on the back just yet. Unbelievers have a higher opinion of humanity-at-large because that is the future they believe in. They will claim that this is all that anyone has...believers included. I reject though cannot objectively prove my counter-position. This is what frustrates me to no end about jar. Though claiming to belong to a recognized Christian Church, he forever argues that humanity creates its own Gods....which makes a conversation with him regarding GOD rather difficult. Its all more Jewish than Episcopalian, in my mind... Look at Spinoza, for example. Spinozas Religion Some snippets:
quote: And this is what I see. Atheists are getting ever more bold in using logic, reason, and reality to build an aggressive case against the rationality of belief.Of course, it is easy to blame it all on a spiritual war, but I unabashedly do so, aware of the impossibility of proving that either. More:
quote: I'm still reading...nore comments later. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
We have a higher opinion of humanity because we're not encumbered by that nonsense about a "Fall". We're free to believe we can do better. In fact, other religions also have a higher opinion of humanity than you evangelical Christians.
Unbelievers have a higher opinion of humanity-at-large because that is the future they believe in. Phat writes:
I know you'd rather quote apologists than actually think about the issues.
This is what frustrates me to no end about jar. Though claiming to belong to a recognized Christian Church, he forever argues that humanity creates its own Gods....which makes a conversation with him regarding GOD rather difficult. Phat writes:
A lot of people could stand to be more Jewish.
Its all more Jewish than Episcopalian, in my mind... Phat writes:
I notice that your quote is about Spinoza and not from Spinoza. Why not let Spinoza speak for himself?
Look at Spinoza, for example. Phat writes:
Do you hear yourself? You're talking about logic, reason and reality as if it was a bad thing. Atheists are getting ever more bold in using logic, reason, and reality to build an aggressive case against the rationality of belief.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4441 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: I don't know who this "everyone" is who is "left guessing." The Bible really doesn't leave us in the dark at all, but if you want to know the answer to questions about Him you have to BELIEVE what it says. Well, that would be the billions of people who would never trust anything you say about the bible or anything else. Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Stile writes: The just shall live by faith...not evidence. -I would NOT want to play some "tee-hee" game about keeping my existence a mystery to see who may and who may not "believe in" me. What does this even do other than feed the ego of a child-like being? If you had a rich uncle, how do you know that people were not only being nice to him because he had money? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
You're embellishing. Habakkuk does not rule out evidence. The just shall live by faith...not evidence. And remember the story of Thomas. Jesus offered evidence to the other disciples and then to Thomas.Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing. -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well it could be a God that simply does not select humans for special consideration,; one that sees ALL creation as good. The God in Genesis 1 saw all that was created as Very Good and so saw pond scum and humans and skunks and squezalls as equally good.
As I said, some Gods can be eliminated but not all GODS.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat, Phat, Phat.
Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was never a Christian. Not sure I've ever pointed that out to you but Jesus was born a Jew, circumcised as a Jew, educated as a Jew, preached to Jews and in the Synagogue, lived as a Jew and died a Jew convicted under Jewish Law.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Or not.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024