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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 762 (862941)
09-17-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
09-04-2018 6:30 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
jar writes:
The challenge is to stop the madness that is current Conservatism and Neo-Fascism and spend our wealth on improving the general quality of life.
What wealth, though? We are collectively in debt. How much are we to spend without sacrificing our own quality of life? I'm all for spare change, but we need to define what we have, what we need, and what *they* need. And who is *they*? Are we expected to support the whole world?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 09-04-2018 6:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 09-17-2019 12:51 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 762 (862945)
09-17-2019 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
09-17-2019 12:23 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
What wealth?
I cannot even believe you asked that question.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 09-17-2019 12:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-17-2019 1:16 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 762 (862948)
09-17-2019 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
09-17-2019 12:51 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Again I say we need to define what we have, what we need, and what *they* need. And who is *they*? Are we expected to support the whole world?
If I owe $100,000.00 in bills, Im not gonna simply give all that I have to the Red Cross.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 09-17-2019 12:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 09-17-2019 2:47 PM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 64 of 762 (862950)
09-17-2019 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
09-17-2019 12:20 PM


Re: A Kind Society or a Selfish one?
There was no golden age when people were less greedy. People are pretty much like they have always been.
Quite frankly I think that people are greedier now and more materialistic, in general.
Affluence ruined a generation of Americans and it reflects in our political attitudes and division.
If you want to back this with data or a coherent argument, I am willing to listen. Till then it means nothing.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-17-2019 12:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 65 of 762 (862952)
09-17-2019 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
09-17-2019 1:16 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
So do it Phat. Honestly define what WE have.
And what people need is shelter and health care and clothes and food and protection and comfort and education.
They are the least of us my brothers. They are those who do not have shelter and health care and clothes and food and protection and comfort and education.
We are not expected to support anyone Phat but we are charged by Jesus (have you ever heard of Jesus or read what he commanded? ) to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, educate the children, comfort the sorrowful and protect the helpless.
Learn the basics Phat.
What nation is the largest oil producer?
What nation is the largest natural gas producer?
What nation is the largest food exporter?
We are wealthy beyond belief; so wealthy that we destroy crops to keep the prices stable. That is utter madness.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-17-2019 1:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 09-17-2019 5:08 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 762 (862964)
09-17-2019 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
09-17-2019 2:47 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Im not talking about "the nation"per se im talking about the people. Maybe the crops are being destroyed, but the farmers are not prospering. Giving the food away instead of plowing it under would not help them.
\
But bringing Jesus into it is another matter. I'm talking from my insecurities and my flesh....I know what He commands spiritually.
How do you tell a guy in debt with a mortgage that the solution is to help the ones poorer than him? How do you convince the populists that giving rather than acquiring is the solution? Its basically a Liberal vs Conservative thing. I argue that we need to rebuild our own infrastructure rather than simply keep giving away foreign aid. When we are stronger we can help more people.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 09-17-2019 2:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-17-2019 5:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 69 by jar, posted 09-17-2019 5:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(6)
Message 67 of 762 (862966)
09-17-2019 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
09-17-2019 5:08 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Giving the food away instead of plowing it under would not help them.
It would not hurt them either. And being seen by fellow humans helping those in need makes it more likely that when the generous farmer needs a hand, that others will help them.
Raising everyone's standard of living raises everyone's standard of living, but you're afraid someone else might get more than you.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 09-17-2019 5:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-18-2019 12:22 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 68 of 762 (862967)
09-17-2019 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
09-04-2018 6:30 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
jar writes:
Nonsense. The challenge is to stop the madness that is current Conservatism and Neo-Fascism and spend our wealth on improving the general quality of life.
Here here Jar!
quote:
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 09-04-2018 6:30 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 69 of 762 (862968)
09-17-2019 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
09-17-2019 5:08 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Phat writes:
How do you convince the populists that giving rather than acquiring is the solution?How do you tell a guy in debt with a mortgage that the solution is to help the ones poorer than him?
You sit down with the person and try to find the path out of debt. Is it best to refinance the mortgage or maybe sell and move to a less expensive home?
Phat writes:
How do you convince the populists that giving rather than acquiring is the solution?
Education; throw God away, ignore and deride the Apologists and conmen; teach children to discriminate and to think critically.
Phat writes:
Its basically a Liberal vs Conservative thing. I argue that we need to rebuild our own infrastructure rather than simply keep giving away foreign aid. When we are stronger we can help more people.
Yet we are not doing shit about our infrastructure and in fact the Conservatives are doing everything they can to make the matters involving infrastructure even worse.
We need (and many have tried to explain to you for decades now) that foreign aid is not giving away, it is investing.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 09-17-2019 5:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 762 (863004)
09-18-2019 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Tanypteryx
09-17-2019 5:20 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
It would not hurt them either.
Uh, yeah it would, because the second that becomes normative is the second that it sets a precedent of thousands of people intentionally waiting in order for a free hand out. Its a matter of perspective really... the farmer who trashes unsold produce is greedy because he could just donate that food to the needy. But we rarely think of the people who wants a free handout at the expense of the farmer as greedy... maybe should qualify who actually is needy, because even people who are not needy has an incentive to want something for free. There is a difference between needy and wanty. All human beings are capable of greed, rich or poor.
And being seen by fellow humans helping those in need makes it more likely that when the generous farmer needs a hand, that others will help them.
If you can fathom a scenario where generous people are being taken advantage of on account of their naive generosity then perhaps you can understand why the farmer, who busts his ass from the second he wakes up until the time he crashes, then you can also understand why instituting a policy like that would have deleterious consequences.
Raising everyone's standard of living raises everyone's standard of living, but you're afraid someone else might get more than you.
Yeah, that must be Phat's motivation... a fear of a poor person getting a cucumber for free instead of .72 cents a pound.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-17-2019 5:20 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-18-2019 3:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(6)
Message 71 of 762 (863020)
09-18-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Hyroglyphx
09-18-2019 12:22 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Hyroglyphx writes:
But we rarely think of the people who wants a free handout at the expense of the farmer as greedy...
Because we rarely define greed as having enough to eat.

Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-18-2019 12:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-18-2019 6:20 PM ringo has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 762 (863028)
09-18-2019 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
09-18-2019 3:20 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
quote:
But we rarely think of the people who wants a free handout at the expense of the farmer as greedy
Because we rarely define greed as having enough to eat.
Expect in an age of WIC, TANF, Section 8, Medicaid, SNAP, Medicare, EBT food stamps, etc, etc, starvation is about as rare as Polio. So if somebody wants free food then they just want free food. Its not a matter of life or death.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-18-2019 3:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Theodoric, posted 09-18-2019 10:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 74 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-18-2019 11:36 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 09-19-2019 11:48 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 73 of 762 (863035)
09-18-2019 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Hyroglyphx
09-18-2019 6:20 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
WIC is for women with young children, TANF is only available for families and for a limited period of time. Some states limit it to 12 months lifetime. Neither gives enough for a family to survive.
Section 8 is housing, the vouchers are extremely hard to get in most places. Nothing to do with food.
In most states in order to receive SNAP benefits there is a 20 hour a week work requirement. It is very hard to hold a job when you are homeless and mentally ill. Even then SNAP benefits are extremely minimal.
Medicare has nothing to do with food. I am not sure how you think medicare helps out a hungry person.
EBT food stamps is the same as SNAP, see above.
Your middle class, white privilege is showing.
Starvation is rare but malnutrition is endemic among the poor and working poor of this country.
So if somebody wants free food then they just want free food. Its not a matter of life or death.
Have you ever experienced actual hunger? Have you seen the results of malnutrition? Its costs are much higher than if we just fed people.
OH and you are a self righteous ass.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-18-2019 6:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2019 12:16 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 74 of 762 (863038)
09-18-2019 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Hyroglyphx
09-18-2019 6:20 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
You forgot corporate welfare.
And I pay for my medicare, Asshole!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-18-2019 6:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2019 12:19 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 762 (863039)
09-19-2019 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Theodoric
09-18-2019 10:22 PM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
WIC is for women with young children, TANF is only available for families and for a limited period of time. Some states limit it to 12 months lifetime. Neither gives enough for a family to survive. Section 8 is housing, the vouchers are extremely hard to get in most places. Nothing to do with food.
In most states in order to receive SNAP benefits there is a 20 hour a week work requirement. It is very hard to hold a job when you are homeless and mentally ill. Even then SNAP benefits are extremely minimal.
Medicare has nothing to do with food. I am not sure how you think medicare helps out a hungry person. EBT food stamps is the same as SNAP, see above.
Your middle class, white privilege is showing.
Its tax money given to them so they don't have to shoulder the burden as all of those are now expenses that they aren't incurring... All of those are things that everyone is expected to pay for, which costs money. So it stands to reason that if you're on Section 8 housing, that your rent is so reduced that it frees up other money that can be used for things, like, food. And really anyone on Section 8 housing pretty much guarantees them food stamps.
Starvation is rare but malnutrition is endemic among the poor and working poor of this country.
Yeah, and you would think the government would have the foresight to limit certain food items that barely qualify as food. Although malnutrition in general, rich or poor, is a huge problem. Cuz people would rather heat up a pack of Ramen than eat a carrot once in awhile.
Have you ever experienced actual hunger? Have you seen the results of malnutrition? Its costs are much higher than if we just fed people.
I'm surrounded by death, violence, maliciousness, and depravity inflicted by humans onto other humans. And a lot of it is sadly directed towards children. So, yeah, I've run the gamut of human suffering. But I'm curious as to your last declaration about costs and feeding people. Are you suggesting that food should be free?
OH and you are a self righteous ass.
Bold words coming from the most self-righteous, fault-finding, finger-wagging moral crusader on the forum.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Theodoric, posted 09-18-2019 10:22 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Theodoric, posted 09-19-2019 8:34 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
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