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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 628 of 868 (856807)
07-03-2019 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 623 by Sarah Bellum
07-02-2019 5:30 PM


Re: The State, not God, defines marriage.
I think marriage SHOULD be a matter for the churches and whatever other institutions have reason to do it, rather than the government. However that has nothing to do with this problem I've been discussing. It wouldn't matter where a gay couple got married, a Christian business still would not disobey God and provide a wedding service for their wedding. We simply do not obey human law when it contradicts God's law.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 629 of 868 (856808)
07-03-2019 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 627 by Tangle
07-03-2019 1:21 AM


Re: How To Determine Chosen Human Instruments
...Faith, from her armchair, who has never read a research paper in any discipline, tells us that archaeology, physics, biology, astronomy, palaeontology, geology and molecular genetics are all so wrong that we might as well throw them all away....
You repeat this from time to time although it's totally false and I've explained how. The only science I object to is whatever is based on the ToE, but most of the work in all those sciences you list does not depend on the ToE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2019 1:21 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 631 of 868 (856812)
07-03-2019 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 630 by Tangle
07-03-2019 4:17 AM


Re: How To Determine Chosen Human Instruments
No, it's only the ToE, and all of those sciences could do their work without it, although they act as if they couldn't because it's so taken for granted. And I don't dispute anything you said about mutations and genetics, just what they do and what they mean.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 653 of 868 (858321)
07-19-2019 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 1:09 PM


Are you sure Lewis said that? It's been years since I read him but I remember him saying that the term "Christian" is commonly bestowed on people without justification, just because they are nice people or live in a Christian culture. I guess he could ALSO have said something along the other lines but I'm surprised if so, orrect doctrine is a big part of what makes a Christian.
ABE: More I think about it and see the context in which this came up the more sure I am Lewis said nothing at all like that.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 1:09 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

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 Message 654 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 2:24 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 655 of 868 (858333)
07-19-2019 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 2:24 PM


That does not sound like C. S. Lewis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 2:24 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 2:29 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 657 of 868 (858344)
07-19-2019 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 656 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 2:29 PM


OK, I accept that. I'm impressed that you found it.
But when someone actively badmouths standard Christian doctrine as jar does I don't think we are out of line to say he isn't a Christian no matter how strenuously he claims that he is on the basis of external facts such as belonging to a church and so on. He actively rejects the foundational doctrine of salvation through Christ's death on the cross for instance. And I doubt Lewis would disagree with me.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 756 of 868 (861810)
08-27-2019 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by AZPaul3
08-27-2019 11:31 AM


The Roman Church was understood by the Protestant Reformers to have begun when the Bishop of Rome was made Universal Bishop by the Byzantine Emperor Phocas, and called Pope, in 606 AD, the beginning of the papal system.
Nicaea came almost three hundred years earlier, and was attended by bishops of all the churches in existence at the time. The Council is understood to have defined the Christian doctrine that is accepted by Christianity in general, the recognition of Christ as God Himself, in opposition to the heresy of Arianism (which today is held mainly by the Jehovah's Witnesses).
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 774 of 868 (861979)
08-30-2019 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 773 by Dredge
08-30-2019 3:27 AM


It isn't its catholicity, it's the papacy and the paganism
If you are responding to me by saying that the term "Catholic" was used to describe the Christian church early on, I'm not objecting. The term applies to the Church at large without in any sense implying the ROMAN church. Protestants also affirm the catholicity of the Church.
The historical point I was making was that the PAPACY is the defining element of the Roman Church, and that began in 606 AD. The Church also went on to accumulate more and more of the trappings of the roman pagan religions, from the robes and headdresses to the title "Pontifex Maxiumus" to the superstitions like relics and the rosary and a long list of other such stuff. Piling all that on to the simple gospel of Jesus Christ ought to have been enough to warn people this wasn't the religion of the Bible but somehow it kept on going. The true Christians escaped into the mountains and wherever they could, but were frequently hunted down and slaughtered for their "heresy" anyway.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 809 of 868 (862954)
09-17-2019 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by PaulK
09-17-2019 12:40 PM


Re: None Are Righteous..And Some Apologize
Which is more likely to contribute to the Holocaust ?
Hitler said he modeled the holocaust on the Catholic Inquisition. It is also known that he made use of eugenics as he understood it from Darwinism (as did Margaret Sanger).
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2019 12:40 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2019 3:33 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 811 of 868 (862957)
09-17-2019 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by PaulK
09-17-2019 3:33 PM


Re: None Are Righteous..And Some Apologize
Darwin made use of selective breeding for his theory, but Sanger and Hitler made use of Darwin for their notions about who should be weeded out of the human race.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 816 of 868 (862974)
09-17-2019 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 814 by jar
09-17-2019 7:05 PM


Re: It was LIBERAL Protestants in German that supported Hitler
Thanks to the 19th century Tubingen School most of the Protestant churches in Germany were Liberal, that is, like you and others here they didn't take the Bible as God's word. True believers like Dietrich Bonhoeffer on the other hand opposed Hitler, and he was executed for his part in the attempted assassination.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by jar, posted 09-17-2019 7:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 821 of 868 (862983)
09-18-2019 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 819 by PaulK
09-18-2019 12:22 AM


Re: It was LIBERAL Protestants in German that supported Hitler
I doubt that you know much about Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Like his leftist leanings
He also had some Liberal Christian views.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 824 of 868 (862986)
09-18-2019 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 823 by Theodoric
09-18-2019 8:38 AM


Eugenics and Darwin
Darwin himself may not have had such uses in mind, but the problem is that the ToE does lend itself to eugenics. If evolutionary changes are random, and Natural Selection gets rid of changes that are deleterious, and yet we can't avoid noticing that there are many such deleterious effects that remain, certainly in human populations, it's not hard to justify doing what nature seems to have failed to do as well as it should have, and get rid of those that remain. The theory lends itself to that kind of cold-blooded "scientific" way of dealing with life.
We are free of course to impose a more humane standard on the theory, but the theory itself offers no such humane standard and since there is a near-worship of Science that makes it the standard, good luck finding solid ground for your humane reasoning. We impose it anyway, of course, despite the lack of reasonable support for it. Although our choices are going to be irrational and subject to political trends.
And that lack of support does allow for some pretty inhumane decisions where we happen to prefer them. The popular support for abortion is an example where the Scientific Standard is applied because it fits our current political views of the Rights of Women and sexual freedom and denigrates the fetus as mere biological accident.
Since Christianity is now rejected as the standard it used to be in the west, it's easy to defend euthanasia for pain too. We're just going to be extinguished by death anyway so why suffer? It's undignified to suffer, let us die with dignity etc. That is a version of the Scientific or Biological definition of human life.
Moral choice is whatever we want it to be and can rationalize as what Evolution selected. So it's more moral to kill the fetus for the convenience of the parent(s) than the Christian view that it involves the destruction of a human life made in the image of God, and it's more moral to assist a person to die than to leave life and death in the hands of a God nobody believes in any more, refusing to call it murder.
And so on.
Eugenics is just one expression of the hegemony of this view of Science and the relativisation of morality. Unlike the examples I give above we aren't in favor of offing whole races, the Jews and Slavs in Hitler's case, the Blacks in Sanger's case (though maybe soon there will be such a case made for offing the White Race by the look of things), but the ToE lets us make such choices according to our own definition of what is good or bad for the human race at large. But our standard is fundamentally irrational, just depends on how we see things at the moment. Since we reject the Christian standard that the west used to live by we just make it up as we go along and Science seems to justify doing things that way.
Darwin may not have envisioned such a consequences of his theory but it's not hard to make the connections. In fact it's a lot harder to ignore them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by Theodoric, posted 09-18-2019 10:23 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 826 of 868 (862990)
09-18-2019 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 825 by Theodoric
09-18-2019 10:23 AM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
I don't see a morality-defining worldview in the existence of aircraft, but I do see it in the ToE. Also in the tenets of Islam of course. Perhaps you could make your point clearer?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 829 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 11:06 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 828 of 868 (862995)
09-18-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 827 by jar
09-18-2019 10:33 AM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
Sounds like too many people were already buying into the Scientific definition of morality that allowed a Hitler to have such power. Believing in the authority of the God of the Bible does prescribe the humane standard that was lost in the Third Reich and in so many of our popular movements today. Even if you're right that it was all made up, which of course I reject, it would have exerted a humane influence that Science doesn't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 827 by jar, posted 09-18-2019 10:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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