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EvC Forum ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Faith and Belief ⇒

Who Made God?

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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Phat
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From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
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Phat Posts Only
Message 856 of 862 (863115)
09-20-2019 11:22 AM 		Reply to: Message 853 by ringo
09-19-2019 5:36 PM

Re: Another Honest Apologist
ringo writes:

f the apologetics are high-quality, why do you keep refusing to discuss them with us?

The main reason is that I am only now understanding and absorbing the arguments in order to articulate the response which I feel. For another, there are no transcripts from which to quote. I can quote scripture, but you have your own preconceived "belief" as to what it means and you even have the audacity to *show* believers where they are wrong. One of these days when I get the time I will try and formulate a response in my own words...in fact, I may try this morning as I have a couple of hours. Perhaps God respects your methodology more than I do, I dunno. He has already confirmed much of your "its the message, stupid" argument to me, though He and I argue about why and how you can get away with your argument by throwing Him away.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 853 by ringo, posted 09-19-2019 5:36 PM ringo has responded
Replies to this message:
 Message 858 by ringo, posted 09-20-2019 12:06 PM Phat has not yet responded
  
ringo
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Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7

ringo Posts Only
Message 857 of 862 (863122)
09-20-2019 11:57 AM 		Reply to: Message 847 by Phat
09-19-2019 2:56 PM

Re: Another Honest Apologist
Phat writes:

Cameron McAllister is another of the RZIM group that provides a stimulating an honest cultural commentary on the times and beliefs which we all share and individually hold.


"Making Sense of the Old Testament" is kind of a bad way to start. It assumes that the Old Testament will "make sense" if you look at it "correctly". That's the beginning of dishonesty right there.

Stop spamming us with these links and actually bring the arguments here.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
This message is a reply to:
 Message 847 by Phat, posted 09-19-2019 2:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
  
ringo
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From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 858 of 862 (863123)
09-20-2019 12:06 PM 		Reply to: Message 856 by Phat
09-20-2019 11:22 AM

Re: Another Honest Apologist
Phat writes:

The main reason is that I am only now understanding and absorbing the arguments in order to articulate the response which I feel.


Well, you've absorbed enough to decide that they're "high quality". That should be enough to articulate a response.

Or does "high quality" just mean they tell you what you want to hear?

Phat writes:

For another, there are no transcripts from which to quote.


If there's nothing to quote, you don't need to quote. Use your own words.

Phat writes:

I can quote scripture, but you have your own preconceived "belief" as to what it means and you even have the audacity to *show* believers where they are wrong.


There's no belief and no audacity. The scripture says what it says. If you want to claim that it doesn't mean what it says, you need something extraordinary to back up that claim. The onus is on you to pony up the backup.
“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
This message is a reply to:
 Message 856 by Phat, posted 09-20-2019 11:22 AM Phat has not yet responded
  
jar
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From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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jar Posts Only
Message 859 of 862 (863124)
09-20-2019 12:22 PM 		Reply to: Message 855 by Phat
09-20-2019 11:15 AM

Re: The New Atheists and their defense of scientism.
Phat writes:

First, I might point out that attempting to approach the Bible scientifically is not the only approach nor, in my opinion, the best approach for studying it. It leads to erroneous conclusions such as you and ringos insistence that the only place a human can "find' Jesus and various human interpretations of "God" is literally within the book.

Yet you and all the other Apologists have NEVER presented a process, procedure, method or mechanism to explain how anyone can actually find Jesus or GOD other than through what has been written in the Bible.

Phat writes:

It is why you charge believers with providing evidence for you. (A wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign) you tell everyone not to *drink the Koolaid* because you were warned years ago by your sweet mama never to trust those carny barkers known as Christian Apologists and Preachers. She must have seen evidence that they wre *all* fake.

Which is all simply yet another example of your ********** as you have no idea what Mama said, mama said.

Fool!

But there is yet more glaring falsehoods in what you post. First the evidence is overwhelming that people find god through the religion they happen to be born into. Other find god in "Conversion" experiences. People find god through the Glorious Qu'ran, the writings of Mencius and Confucius, through Tao Chi or through any one of the many Hindu Esthetics.

Second there is reality and fantasies can be tested against reality.

What happens when you test the claims and writings of the apologists against reality?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website
This message is a reply to:
 Message 855 by Phat, posted 09-20-2019 11:15 AM Phat has not yet responded
  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14587
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0

Phat Posts Only
Message 860 of 862 (863126)
09-20-2019 1:22 PM 		Reply to: Message 853 by ringo
09-19-2019 5:36 PM

Re: Another Honest Apologist
Phat writes:

Dont you have an overall interpretation of your own?


ringo writes:

No more than I have an overall interpretation of the library.

Which you do. You claim that the characters are only found in the book and have no life of their own outside of the book. The book itself says that the characters pre-existed the book, but you frame that issue in the context of human authors of the book. Like jar, you ask what the evidence supports. Did it ever occur to you that this is not simply another science experiment.?
ringo writes:

I do point out where the scriptures get it right and where believers get it wrong.

You use the scriptures to point out how they support your secular belief in a government of by and for the people that helps its own. You adopt the message to your political and humanist ideology. I'm not sure why you are an atheist, but I will again ask.
  • Is it because you observed that Christians obeyed the message evn less than some secular people you knew?
  • Is it because you found evidence that called into question the authorship of the Book?
  • Is it because you never felt that warm fuzzy certainty that God was real and alive? Or did you throw away that feeling based on lack of objective evidence?

    I observe you and Stile going round and round. In some ways you two are alike and in some ways you are different. You are different in that you claim to always be looking for God as a useful realistic pursuit, whereas he declares the reasoning why he concludes there is none.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    • This message is a reply to:
     Message 853 by ringo, posted 09-19-2019 5:36 PM ringo has responded
    Replies to this message:
     Message 862 by ringo, posted 09-20-2019 5:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14587
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0

    Phat Posts Only
    Message 861 of 862 (863128)
    09-20-2019 4:01 PM     		Reply to: Message 107 by Theodoric
    02-01-2013 9:04 AM

    Re: Evidence
    Theodoric, to Faith writes:

    I reject your concept of a god totally and completely. If your god existed I would tell him to fuck himself for all of the misery he has caused.

    This reminds me of a Chapter in the RZIM book. You likely will ignore it due to the indiscretions of Ravi, but I still see the message of the ministry as rational.
    Moreover, after examining the evidence you gave me, I conclude..(tentatively) that
    1) Ravi did, in fact, have communication with the woman. It is unclear by the blacked-out texts and court insinuations from the woman how guilty he was at exploiting/pursuing her. I tend to see it as she and her husband attempting to extort him. Nevertheless, I will take your evidence into consideration when judging his character, despite the fact that everyone sins and makes mistakes. Ravi blew it, quite frankly...by even trying to interact with that person. They likely felt that broader public disclosure would have hurt the ministry...not through Ravi being a snake (which I don't believe he was..) but by calling into question his character.
    I will agree that he also blundered by exaggerating his credentials. That is not relevant in regards to the ministry in that I see many apologists there with valid and honest credentials and education, likely due to the fact that they purposefully went that direction after Ravi's careless blunders.

    You have a bias against Christianity and apologetics anyway, so I expect it from you. You might argue that I have a similar bias that Christians are better than other people and always deserve a free pass of forgiveness, so we are even in that regard.

    Getting back to what the RZIM leaders present in the podcasts is my focus, however. I see no snake oil there.

    It appears you are biased towards the God marketed by either Faith herself or in probability Christianity in general. You might even say that what you object to is clearly contained within scripture. My question is that if you were to believe that a higher power existed, what attributes would *you* expect such a higher power to have? You seem big on integrity. What would it take for this Higher Power to do or to exhibit that would gain your respect, if not worship?

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 107 by Theodoric, posted 02-01-2013 9:04 AM Theodoric has not yet responded
      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18753
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7

    ringo Posts Only
    Message 862 of 862 (863135)
    09-20-2019 5:57 PM     		Reply to: Message 860 by Phat
    09-20-2019 1:22 PM

    Re: Another Honest Apologist
    Phat writes:

    You claim that the characters are only found in the book and have no life of their own outside of the book.


    How is that an "overall interpretation"? It's an obvious fact - and one that applies to a lot of books.

    Phat writes:

    The book itself says that the characters pre-existed the book...


    You can't use the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself to back up the book itself....

    Phat writes:

    Did it ever occur to you that this is not simply another science experiment.?


    No. Why would you suggest that it isn't?

    Phat writes:

    You use the scriptures to point out how they support your secular belief in a government of by and for the people that helps its own.


    You have it backwards. I can see what works. The people have to help each other if there's going to be any help because your God is flat-out not doing it. I could see that whether or not I had ever heard of the Bible.

    Phat writes:

    I'm not sure why you are an atheist, but I will again ask.


    I don't self-identify as an atheist. I self-identify as agnostic.

    My reasoning is similar to your reasoning about the Tooth Fairy: it's just a silly idea. And the idiotic theology that you spout doesn't make it any less silly.

    “Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
    -- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 860 by Phat, posted 09-20-2019 1:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
      
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