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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 762 (863273)
09-23-2019 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by AZPaul3
09-23-2019 8:31 PM


Oh I do care indeed, but I do NOT think the causes of all these things are all that clear, and we do NOT need politically motivated hysteria. Lots of theories, nothing all that clear. And policies designed to improve the environment often have the effect of putting people out of work. That's not greed, that's ordinary human need. And there are lots of other problems that need to be taken into account before a heavy-handed "solution" is imposed on us.
Would you please give a brief synopsis of each of your links since I can't read them? Thank you.
Oh, and I'd appreciate a brief sketch of what you think needs to be done. Thank you again.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2019 8:31 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2019 11:05 PM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 167 of 762 (863275)
09-23-2019 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
09-23-2019 5:41 PM


Re: the wall is simply stupid!
Not under the current lawless situation.
True, it is the current lawless situation that's creating this crisis and many others which endanger not only our country but also the world.
That is why we need to impeach and remove the Crook-in-Chief and then to prosecute him for his many crimes and his cronies for theirs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 09-23-2019 5:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 168 of 762 (863276)
09-23-2019 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
09-23-2019 8:52 PM


Would you please give a brief synopsis of each of your links since I can't read them?
The links weren't there for you but for the peanut gallery.
You wouldn't understand the science or acknowledge the facts as other than leftist liberal propaganda meant to degrade your great christian stewardship of this planet.
a brief sketch of what you think needs to be done.
You and the rest of the right are a lost cause but for everyone else the most important thing to do first is to acknowledge that the problem is real and, as much as a layman can, understand the science behind the facts.
After that then steep carbon offsets and major investments in renewables can be instituted along with the social and personal lifestyle changes required, recognizing that this, if adopted en masse, will only keep things from getting even worse than the inevitable destruction we have already pissed into the system for the next 200+ years. Given the politics of the world today I am not optimistic.
Unfortunately we may have already passed a tipping point and the Holocene Extinction will continue and may include H. Sapiens in the death toll in the next 10,000 years.
But, hey, no one I know or love is going to be around to suffer the slow agonizing death of our species over the next few millennia so as long as my chardonnay is properly chilled who cares?
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 09-23-2019 8:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 4:48 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 5:38 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 169 of 762 (863285)
09-24-2019 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by AZPaul3
09-23-2019 11:05 PM


Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
I want to understand what is killing so many birds. That shouldn't be too hard to explain. And what this Great Extinction is in general, and why you think it's about climate change and what you think the cause of climate change really is. Look, there is science and there is science. This kind of science can't be as hard and fast as you all present it as being. There are always going to be unknown factors you can't take into account.
You wouldn't understand the science or acknowledge the facts as other than leftist liberal propaganda meant to degrade your great christian stewardship of this planet.
OK I overreacted to that girl. It just sounded like another attack on people who care about the economic condition of the US in particular, just another attack on Trump and on his followers as morally wrong while the Left sees itself as Oh So Compassionate and morally More Righteous Than Thou on the Right. No, this polarization has to stop. I care a lot about what happens to the planet and accusing conservatives of caring only about money gets me upset and angry. Trump wants to keep people working and make us independent of Saudi oil among other things and he's succeeded in that, but instead of appreciating that achievement the Left accuses him of not caring about the environment. There has to be some way to see both sides of this without all this fingerpointing.
a brief sketch of what you think needs to be done.
You and the rest of the right are a lost cause but for everyone else the most important thing to do first is to acknowledge that the problem is real and, as much as a layman can, understand the science behind the facts.
The problem is that, really, truly, there are others with good scientific credentials, who explain it all in different ways. If all you do is call them charlatans and the Right stupid we aren't going to be taking you seriously. We can't. Again, this kind of science cannot be as completely reliable as you think it is. And when the solutions proposed put people out of work, make us dependent on our enemies for resources that we happen to have plenty of if the Left wasn't always preventing us from making use of them, and threaten to turn the US into a third world swamp, ESPECIALLY when we know there are elements on the Left that simply ideologically irrationally hate America and couldn't care less about all these issues REALLY, and you won't hear OUR side of it, there is going to continue to be conflict that maybe doesn't have to exist as it does. ISN'T IT POSSIBLE TO THINK ABOUT THIS WITHOUT ALL THE FINGERPOINTING POLARIZATION?
After that then steep carbon offsets and major investments in renewables can be instituted along with the social and personal lifestyle changes required, recognizing that this, if adopted en masse, will only keep things from getting even worse than the inevitable destruction we have already pissed into the system for the next 200+ years. Given the politics of the world today I am not optimistic.
Unfortunately we may have already passed a tipping point and the Holocene Extinction will continue and may include H. Sapiens in the death toll in the next 10,000 years.
You are right if you think I don't understand a word of any of that. It's about as obscure as it could possibly get. I'm concerned about how such thinking can lead to destroying the American economy and making us a sitting duck for our enemies. Does THIS matter at all to you? BUT I DO CARE ABOUT THE PLANET TOO. Stop accusing me. Tell that girl to stop accusing people who do care of trying to make her life miserable.
But, hey, no one I know or love is going to be around to suffer the slow agonizing death of our species over the next few millennia so as long as my chardonnay is properly chilled who cares?
I care a lot about the world my grandkids are going to inherit. I don't want them to be under a Leftist dictator OR living in a destroyed world.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2019 11:05 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by AZPaul3, posted 09-24-2019 8:34 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 762 (863288)
09-24-2019 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by AZPaul3
09-23-2019 11:05 PM


Holocene Extinction?
I'm not doubting that we may be experiencing an unusual level of extinctions although I reject the whole idea of the Geological Time Scale with its supposed extinctions or explosions or anything else, since I don't think it has anything to do with history. We could be experiencing an unusual level of extinctions now in any case. I may have other explanations for it, and in fact explanations not shared by others on the Right or other Christians either for that matter, but it should be possible to recognize if creatures are going extinct in great numbers and think about why.
And how much of this Extinction Event is what you are talking about as the big environmental problem threatening the planet?
AbE: If extinction is occurring at a rapid rate these days, it's going to go a lot faster according to my way of thinking than according to the idea of Time Periods since there's no way we have thousands of years left.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by AZPaul3, posted 09-23-2019 11:05 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 171 of 762 (863290)
09-24-2019 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
09-22-2019 10:00 AM


Re: the wall is simply stupid!
One absolutely basic right is that a person is considered innocent unless first charged with a crime and then adjudged to be guilty by a court and with legal council.
This is different than in other nations and one of the somewhat unique characteristics of the historic United State of America.
No it's not. That's how things work on paper almost everywhere in the world, and in practice in every liberal democratic society.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 8:07 AM caffeine has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 172 of 762 (863292)
09-24-2019 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by caffeine
09-24-2019 7:22 AM


Re: the wall is simply stupid!
IF THE PERSON IS ALREADY LEGALLY IN THE COUNTRY. OUR COURTS AREN'T USED TO JUDGE CASES IN OTHER COUNTRIES>

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by caffeine, posted 09-24-2019 7:22 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by caffeine, posted 09-24-2019 9:23 AM Faith has not replied
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 173 of 762 (863293)
09-24-2019 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Faith
09-24-2019 4:48 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
I care a lot about the world my grandkids are going to inherit.
No you don't. You haven't the capacity. You have told us many times over the years that your god is going to come down here and destroy this world. Fixing our long term future means nothing to you since you, and hundreds of millions like you, don't see such a future.
This blind insistence on scripture as prophecy keeps you idiots from seeing the problem let along needing to act to change it.
Your religion is evil. And this Climate Change vs Revelations is one big reason why.
I don't want them to be under a Leftist dictator OR living in a destroyed world.
Did you see Trump's response to young Greta's pleas? He mocked her saying "She seems very happy." The son of a bitch.
With responses like that it is too late. As the climate grows worse for humanity strong dictators on both the far right and the far left, already on the rise, will grow even stronger.
Our children will most probably live under dictatorships in a destroyed world.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 4:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 8:51 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 9:01 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 179 by 1.61803, posted 09-24-2019 9:45 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 174 of 762 (863294)
09-24-2019 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by AZPaul3
09-24-2019 8:34 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Oh fer pete's sake. Yes eventually the world will come to an end. But meanwhile we ARE supposed to be good stewards of Planet Earth and that means figuring out what needs to be done so we can do it. I certainly don't think there is nothing that needs doing, but there does seem to be reason to question the causes of the Climate Change problem. Doesn't mean there ISN'T such a problem but DOES mean the causes aren't all that clear and that the solutions you have in mind may not be the best. In any case they shouldn't be politically imposed on us against our will.
Meanwhile I really WOULD like to know what's happening to the birds.
I'd also like to see some reasonable recognition that the Right isn't just out to destroy the environment but that it's apparently the needs of the economy that cause the problems you think need dealing with. It should be possible to take both sides into account.
Thank you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by AZPaul3, posted 09-24-2019 8:34 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Phat, posted 09-24-2019 9:12 AM Faith has replied
 Message 188 by AZPaul3, posted 09-24-2019 10:44 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 762 (863295)
09-24-2019 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by AZPaul3
09-24-2019 8:34 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
I did not see Trump's response to Greta. I am sure I will hear about it on the radio today.
As for dictators, the more this polarized situation continues without any give from either side the more likely we will end up under one kind or the other.
AbE: I think there are probably lots of things we can do to improve the environmental problems whatever their cause.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 176 of 762 (863296)
09-24-2019 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
09-24-2019 8:51 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Ive always looked at the whole Global Warming thiing from this perspective: Both Liberals and Conservatives in general *know* that its a problem and a future issue. The controversy is really over how it gets solved. One side wants private enterprise involved and government to butt out. The other side sees it as a human issue (and therefore a leftist one) Its just that simple.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 8:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 9:27 AM Phat has replied
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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 177 of 762 (863297)
09-24-2019 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
09-24-2019 8:07 AM


Re: the wall is simply stupid!
IF THE PERSON IS ALREADY LEGALLY IN THE COUNTRY. OUR COURTS AREN'T USED TO JUDGE CASES IN OTHER COUNTRIES>
I was addressing jar's silly claim that 'innocent until proven guilty' is something unique to the United States.
Interestingly, though, your courts are sometimes used to judge cases in other countries sometimes, as a result of the international nature of modern business. But I guess this is not what you're shouting about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 8:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 178 of 762 (863298)
09-24-2019 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Phat
09-24-2019 9:12 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Sorry Phat, not getting it. The problem with the Left's solutions seems to me to be that they destroy the economy, put people out of work and make us dependent on enemy nations for things we should be able to supply for ourselves. And as long as the Left keeps accusing us of not caring or of being greedy, caring only about money, and when they have the power forcing their solutions on us that DO wreck the economy, the less inspired conservatives are to find solutions.
Seems to me that the Right isn't trying to solve the environmental problems however, and that's a big problem in itself. Partly because they have been put on the defensive and always in the position of having to keep the economy from collapsing and people losing jobs etc etc. Michael Savage is the only one on the Right I've heard say how important it is to take care of the environment but I haven't read his book on that subject so I don't know what solutions he has in mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Phat, posted 09-24-2019 9:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by 1.61803, posted 09-24-2019 10:01 AM Faith has replied
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 09-24-2019 10:12 AM Faith has replied
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(2)
Message 179 of 762 (863299)
09-24-2019 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by AZPaul3
09-24-2019 8:34 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Hi AZPaul3,
AZPaul3 writes:
Our children will most probably live under dictatorships in a destroyed world.
I hope not. If Dump has done anything he has shown our flaws. No American president has ever shit on our constitution and justice system to the extent that he seems to excel at. It is new territory that our new future leaders will hopefully be able to remedy in shoring up our democracy against such things. The GOP has gone completely off the reservation in their support for such a tyrant. Standing by and letting this corruption continue is inexcusable.
I have faith in our country, this too shall pass and we will all be smarter and stronger once we as Americans are free of this flock of buzzards. My only hope is that the people that need to be punished will be. Just wait and see what happens when these shit stains are asked, once Trump is gone, what did you do during the war? The real squirming will begin.
I see hope, I see young people becoming aware! Good for them they seem to realize our problems will not be solved by kicking the can yet again down the road.
That time has passed.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by AZPaul3, posted 09-24-2019 8:34 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(3)
Message 180 of 762 (863301)
09-24-2019 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
09-24-2019 9:27 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Hi Faith,
Try and for once stop conflating all these problems in a Us vs Them.
Our problems will not be solved by the continued polarization of our team vs their team.
The "Left" is not wanting to destroy the economy.
The "Left" does not want to put people out of work.
We are all people who want the same things, prosperity, freedom and safety.
There will always be selfish people who want more than they can ever spend and do what ever it takes to insure the laws and protections are in place to keep them enriched. It is that simple.
So just know if these rich people get away with what they want they will be living in a Dome eating lab grown caviar being served chilled synthetic champagne by robots. All the while the world burns. Once there is no more water or people to till the land what use will money be?

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 9:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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