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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 670 (860745)
08-11-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Percy
08-11-2019 8:05 AM


Re: Dayton Shooting
You're misrepresenting the proposal you're indirectly referring to. The proposal is not to keep the citizenry armed while disarming the police. It's to disarm everyone, including the police except for specially trained units.
That won't happen. You could outlaw all guns tomorrow afternoon and offer this gun buy-back program, and you wouldn't even get rid of a fourth of the guns in the population. Ironically, the people most likely to give up their guns would have been the most responsible gun owners. These are the kinds of people who try hard not to violate the law in any way and are terrified of the consequences so they willingly acquiesce not to rock the boat.
That's the tragic irony of it. The very last people who have their guns taken away are the people you created the law for in the first place. The people you don't actually mind being armed are the one's affected most deeply.
In particular we must eliminate from the entire country all weapons that fire highly lethal small, fast, light bullets. Here are the entry and exit wounds from an M4 round. The M4 is not too dissimilar from the AR-15
An M4 and an AR15 are all variants of the M16 -- all which uses a standard .223 or .556 caliber round.
We have to get rid of weapons that can inflict such massive trauma to the body.
Its the subsonic speed at which the round travels that causes cavitation like that. But then a shotgun slug produces even more trauma than that. Its kind of a moot point. You can kill someone with a steak knife just as easily as you could a butcher knife. Are we measuring by the grotesqueness of a wound? What metric are we using here?
So, you gun nuts out there with your concealed carry or your open carry or whatever you carry, is this the kind of weapon your pop guns are really going to protect you from?
Yes. Those "pop guns" were exactly the same caliber (probably 9mm) that killed the Dayton gunmen.... by an armed police force.... in less than 30 seconds.
I'm sure you assume that I'm a member of NRA or whatever... I'm not. I'm just a regular guy. I don't like the way the NRA is something of a caricature. I am in favor of regulating deadly weapons and doing everything possible to keep them out of the hands of dangerous felons without keeping them out of the hands of people trying to protect themselves from those dangerous felons. But I do agree with one premise that they advocate.... If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile.
We all know the end game is total and complete disarmament. No politician is stupid enough to outright say the things that you're saying, but we know that's the ultimate motive. And how it will be done is by banning this first and then going for that down the line; incrementally trying to change the landscape.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Percy, posted 08-11-2019 8:05 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 08-11-2019 2:15 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 250 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 11:24 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 270 by 1.61803, posted 08-13-2019 4:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 670 (860751)
08-11-2019 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
08-11-2019 2:15 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
So that busts the myth that most gun-owners are law-abiding.
Not at all. Cocaine was once legal... it was legally placed into products. Once it became illegal, they had to stop using it as an additive.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 08-11-2019 2:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-11-2019 2:57 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 670 (860758)
08-11-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ringo
08-11-2019 2:57 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
What has that got to do with what you said?
Because owning weapons is not illegal at this point. If 2nd Amendment is amended then it will be. You're placing the cart before the horse.
You said, "You could outlaw all guns tomorrow afternoon and offer this gun buy-back program, and you wouldn't even get rid of a fourth of the guns in the population." Doesn't that imply that gun owners would not give up their guns? That they would keep them illegally?
Ah, I understand your point now. The way they will view it is the same way patriots were engaging in illegal behaviors of the Crown. They won't care and they will view it as usurpation by a government inching towards tyranny. The adage 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' summarizes the concept.
So, sure, I guess they'll be illegal... and it won't stop them because they'll view it in righteous terms. But, hey, does illegal marijuana use grossly impact anyone to stop smoking weed? Nope. Do they think of themselves as hardened criminals? Nope.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 08-11-2019 2:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 11:43 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 670 (860850)
08-12-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Percy
08-12-2019 11:24 AM


Re: Dayton Shooting
The metric is deadliness. Shotguns can be grouped with assault weapons. Knives cannot compare in deadliness to assault weapons.
I'm just clarifying because you showed images of entrance and exit wounds, as it to insinuate that the more grotesque or horrific the injury that it should correspond to whether or not it should be accessible to civilians. A hunting rifle is even more powerful though and the ballistic wounds they inflict on the human body are even more pronounced.
Yes, so typical, police officers patrolling just doors away when gunfire erupted and with the gunman's attention focused away from them. 10 dead and 27 wounded in just 32 seconds. These types of weapons do not belong in civilian hands.
You advanced a theory that stated police should not be armed, except for SWAT teams. This event gives you tangible evidence of why police are armed. Your alternative was a much higher body count while waiting for SWAT to arrive. Neutralized in 30 seconds is a lot better than 30 minutes... and I'm being extremely generous with a 30 minute turn around.
This thread is not talking about civilians being armed, its about "Police Shootings" and your advancement of the belief that police should not be armed. Here is the reason why they should.
You're a gun nut who rationalizes the instruments of so much death.
I rationalize the necessity while lamenting the fact that it is an unfortunate reality. I approach reality as it is, not how I wish it to be.
Guns make you less safe, not more. You're buying into the myth that a gun is a defensive instrument. It isn't.
Except when it is. I can use a hammer to either hit nails or hit people in the head with. But as usual, your side of the aisle never wants to address the actual problem and instead focuses on the instrument used. You can't "ban" your way into compliance although its clearly worked well banning North Korea and Iran from owning nuclear weapons. We know more about the shooters than we do the victims and even less about the people who stopped the pieces of shit. Maybe the media should de-platform them and stop giving losers the recognition they're so desperate to have.
Accusing the people you're negotiating with of lying, dissembling and misrepresentation is probably not a good way to start.
Its the truth. Its the death by a thousand cuts strategy.
police should not be carrying guns.
So instead of increasing police proficiency you'd rather police just be useless. That's a great plan, Percy. That way the Dayton shooter would have killed 5 times as many.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 11:24 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 5:28 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 255 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 5:40 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 262 of 670 (860886)
08-12-2019 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by ringo
08-12-2019 5:28 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
I find it odd that so many Americans don't like "government interference" in their lives but at the same time they're in favor of giving more power to the police.
There's never been a time in American policing where they weren't armed, so they aren't gaining any power, they're just retaining it. Police without guns is like firefighters without houses. It just doesn't make any sense.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 5:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 08-13-2019 11:42 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 269 by xongsmith, posted 08-13-2019 3:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 670 (860890)
08-13-2019 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Percy
08-12-2019 5:40 PM


Re: Dayton Shooting
Again, that's just so typical that six police officers were patrolling a short distance away, right? That's the typical response time in Dayton, just 32 seconds, right? And that's why you're using this example as part of your argument, because you know it's representative, right?
It is typical in a crowded, urban area that police are in high numbers where alcohol-fueled fights are common. Even if it was in a suburban neighborhood, response times would have been under 5 minutes for patrol cops. It takes quite awhile for SWAT to mobilize. For the sake of the argument lets say those officers were there but they were unarmed. What then are they going to do to help the situation? Why do you even have them if they're powerless to help in any meaningful way?
And here's another point: Canadian police carry guns. Australian cops carry guns. Swedish cops carry guns. German cops carry guns. French cops carry guns. But your sole issue seems to be with American cops. Your reply will likely be that those police agencies don't kill hundreds of people a year like American cops. But doesn't that speak to the point that a better trained police force is a safer police force? Or at the very least, its just makes common friggin' sense that so long as arms are available to civilian population that police be able to meet those challenges with a fighting chance? It would at least make more sense to first disarm the populace to give these cops a fighting chance. Then if the numbers drastically reduce you can introduce whether cops need them. I can tell you now that as of this moment, they need them!
The message of Dayton is that an assault rifle was able to kill 10 and injure 27 in in just 32 seconds. Assault weapons must be banned, and ultimately we should disarm everyone except special units.
Maybe you might find it ironic that the Dayton shooter shared your beliefs on the subject. The take away is that he was a sick and deluded kid... one of many. You might recall Austin had a serial bomber about a year ago. He used all kinds of homemade items to create his bombs. The focal point isn't the items or tools its the sick mind and how to reach these sick bastards before they fall off of the cliff of sanity. Sick people will always find ways to kill people... as much as it sucks, serial killers and spree killers exist. They just do. For them, their path is kill or be killed.
That's true, but again, you're being repeatedly misleading. The proposal is not to disarm the police while allowing everyone else to remain armed. The proposal is to disarm everyone except special police units.
Why do you suppose even nations where guns are heavily restricted still carry arms? Spoiler alert: Because people still get a hold of them... and because a gun isn't the only weapon capable of justifying deadly force. If someone has a machete you don't pull out your pepper spray.
Except it never is. A shield or a vest is a defensive device. A gun only protects by going offensive. A gun's offensive nature is why this thread exists, because so many police "defend" themselves by shooting people. A situation described several times in this thread is of deceased civilians lying on the ground next to their cell phones who are no longer a threat, but then they weren't a threat before, either.
Did you have a specific case in mind?
More training is not the answer.
Except in Canada. Or Australia. Or wherever, so long as it isn't the US.
I don't understand why you've made this misleading statement multiple times in a single message. Again, the proposal is to disarm everyone, not just the police. I'd like us to eventually join Iceland, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway and the United Kingdom.
Maybe you should move there then. The 2nd Amendment shall not be infringed

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Percy, posted 08-12-2019 5:40 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 08-13-2019 5:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 670 (860921)
08-13-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by ringo
08-13-2019 11:42 AM


Re: Dayton Shooting
That's obviously nonsense. Police in Britain don't have guns.
There's like 5 countries that doesn't have an armed police force, making GB way outside the norm. There's actually more nations that don't even have a standing army than that. So, yeah, my point stands.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 08-13-2019 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 08-13-2019 12:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 670 (861052)
08-16-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Percy
08-16-2019 7:13 AM


Re: A Police Shooting with Body Cam Footage: What Do You Think?
The police who fired the shots might be in serious legal jeopardy, but it depends upon how you interpret the body cam footage. Was he really reaching for a gun while on the dead run, or just trying to keep it from hindering his running. Colorado law prohibits shooting a fleeing suspect unless there is imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer, and could a fleeing suspect fumbling for a heavy object in his pocket really be considered an imminent threat?
Based upon the call text, what was alleged was an Aggravated Robbery using a deadly weapon. The two subject's matched the description and the area given by the complainant. So the officers were right to ask them not to reach towards their waistband or pockets, to keep their hands up, and to perform a frisk for weapons. The subject, knowing he's got a firearm on him and is potentially facing 5 to 99 years for a 1st degree felony, flees.
What it looks like to me is that he immediately reaches towards his waistline, most likely to hold the gun in place so that it wouldn't fall while he was running. He was wearing basketball shorts so the chance it would have fallen out at a dead sprint is likely.
The two officers see him reaching for his waistband. At this point they have probable cause to believe he is armed, but cannot definitively state if he was at that point. In order to invoke Tennessee vs Gardner, they must be able to articulate the following:
quote:
A police officer may not seize an unarmed, non-dangerous suspect by shooting him dead...however...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force.
We can all probably agree that it was a terrible idea to rob someone with the use of a deadly weapon. We can all probably agree that it was a terrible idea to run. We can all probably agree that it was a terrible idea to be reaching for your waistband given what the officers expressly articulated to the subject beforehand.
The looming question then was whether it was reasonable or unreasonable to fire at a fleeing felon in the back without being able to certify whether it was a weapon or not. The other question was whether he was holding the gun in place to prevent it from falling or whether his intentions were to pull it out, turn around, and fire on the officers. That remains to be seen, but we know that can and does happen and that all it takes is a second to turn and fire. And action is always faster than reaction
My guess is that the officers will be no-billed and that the courts will ultimately rule that given the totality of the circumstances involved it was objectively reasonable to use deadly force.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Percy, posted 08-16-2019 7:13 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Percy, posted 08-17-2019 3:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 670 (863334)
09-24-2019 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Percy
09-24-2019 9:54 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
Police officers, even with all their training and practice, make a deadly mistakes. Issuing every police officer a weapon as if it were the wild west out there is a recipe for firearm mishaps ranging from the insignificant to true tragedies like this one. And as this recent article about the trial makes clear (Ex-lover of officer who shot neighbor acknowledges racy texts but denies planned rendezvous), police are just average people with a little training.
This has nothing to do with training or the lack thereof. I'm not buying the narrative that she, whoops, went to the wrong apartment. There's about a million reasons for why that is implausible. It is far more likely that she knew that man, whether there was a past sexual experience between them or they had some kind of previous, brief exchange (maybe even something as small as her perception that he cut her off in the parking garage). But all indications at this juncture would lead to a conclusion that it was no accident.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Percy, posted 09-24-2019 9:54 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 09-25-2019 4:11 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 670 (863342)
09-25-2019 12:17 AM


Its impossible to believe that people actually defended the crystal clear actions of a homicidal maniac while demonizing someone that has the inherent right to protect themselves. This has to be trolling... no one could actually defend it.
Here is a prime example of why police officers, even in the UK, should be armed. There's no SWAT team that's going to come to your rescue. You have seconds or fractions of a second to defend your life or you die. Its really that simple.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 12:31 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 290 by Percy, posted 09-25-2019 10:45 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 670 (863345)
09-25-2019 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by vimesey
09-25-2019 12:31 AM


No thanks. We’ve done the maths and worked out that more guns leads to more deaths. We’ll stick with fewer deaths.
Fewer deaths for whom? Knife-wielding assailants or police officers/innocent civilians? This thread is specific to police carrying guns. Given a knife is a deadly weapon and given that UK knife violence continues to rise, seems that there is an insufficient way to handle it and that current legislation doesn't curb it. Shocking.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 12:31 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 1:42 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2019 4:49 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 670 (863352)
09-25-2019 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by vimesey
09-25-2019 1:42 AM


We don’t like to kill people. Either deliberately, if they’re wielding a knife, or accidentally, if the police officer is an error prone human being. Call us crazy like that.
Nobody said anything about liking it. But either one shit head dies or he kills many others in the absence of direct intervention.
Pacifism isn't the abrogation of violence... pacifism IS violence.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 1:42 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by AZPaul3, posted 09-25-2019 3:19 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 287 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 4:08 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 301 by ringo, posted 09-25-2019 3:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 670 (863368)
09-25-2019 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by vimesey
09-25-2019 4:08 AM


You seem to be a fan of savagery. Someone wields a knife - kill him ! In another post, you admire the lion for killing what it eats.
I'm simply trying to convey a reality that you would like to pretend doesn't exist... namely that savagery exists and has to be dealt with.
There's a preference here for civilisation over savagery. We've seen the ultimate expression of savagery in a modern society and we're not fans.
Yeah, and the pacifist prefers peace but gets none of it because he's a pacifist and because he wants to believe that savagery can be curbed by his own sense of compassion.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by vimesey, posted 09-25-2019 4:08 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Taq, posted 09-25-2019 11:43 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 670 (863371)
09-25-2019 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Theodoric
09-25-2019 4:11 AM


Re: Another Example Why Police Shouldn't Have Guns
But you have no basis for this assumption. There is as of yet no evidence to back this scenario. Gut feelings have no bearing on actual facts.
I said there were reasons for why I didn't believe it. Just because I didn't go into those reasons is not the same as a "gut feeling." Prior to the sounds of gunfire, witnesses heard Guyger banging on the door and yelling, "Let me in!" Unless you think she was randomly banging to be let into a strangers residence, I'd say that's a fairly good indication that she knew him (even if briefly) and that it directly challenges the theory that she mistakenly entered the wrong apartment.
So then can I assume that you believe it wasn't murder, for which she has been charged and tried for, but you think its manslaughter?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 09-25-2019 4:11 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 670 (863375)
09-25-2019 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Tangle
09-25-2019 4:49 AM


A knife becomes a deadly weapon when it's used that way. Like a car, battery acid, a golf club, a brick. An military assault rifle has only one purpose.
All tools and objects are just tools and objects until someone wields it as a weapon. A tank, clearly an instrument designed for war, could also be used as an ambulance. All that ever matters is which human mind is operating the tool and their motivations.
Knife crime has become a problem in youth gangs in some parts of our cities, mostly London and mostly drug driven. It's a very worrying issue. Even so, there were 'only' 263 knife murders in the UK between July 2017 and July 2018. I won't embarrass you with the US figure.
I don't think you understand what my objection is. Tasers are absolutely fantastic when they work. Problem is they work about 50% of the time, especially during colder months where people naturally wear bulkier clothing. And fighting a person armed with a knife with only a baton looks cool in the movies, but in reality you're gonna get carved up before being able to actually disarm him.
If the cops can't reliably defend themselves how can they be expected to defend anyone else?
Our police are armed when they need to be.
Short of your police being clairvoyant soothsayers how would anybody know when that time is?
Increasingly so given the terrorism threat. It's something that even right wing leaning people here are concerned about. But there is absolutely no demand from anywhere to arm the bobby on the beat - not even the police. We know it would lead to even more needless death. We need to solve the underlying problem, not go around shooting people.
Yes, the underlying problem is why and how some people get to a place where they desire to hurt others. But trying conduct a forensic auditing of his mental state amid his savage attack doesn't help him, doesn't help the innocent people in his path and doesn't help the police from reliably stopping him.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2019 4:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2019 12:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
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