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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 211 of 762 (863385)
09-25-2019 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
09-25-2019 12:27 PM


Re: Methane problem
Since I asked AZ about possible chemical controls on Methane, I looked it up and found there is something called
"The Oxygen Activation Chemistry of Methane ..." The title sounds promising to me but of course I have no idea what it's all about.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 12:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 212 of 762 (863386)
09-25-2019 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
09-25-2019 12:25 PM


Re: We don't need to get hysterical about climate change, it only makes things worse
Faith writes:
Greenery consumes carbon dioxide and gives off oxygen.
Deforestation is not the cause of the sudden rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels. Reforestation will do nothing to reverse the current trend of increasing carbon dioxide levels.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 12:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 213 of 762 (863388)
09-25-2019 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Faith
09-25-2019 12:07 PM


Re: Methane problem
how about giving us the chemistry of controlling methane so we can think about it.
Don't let so much of it out to begin with. Stop gas drilling. Stop fracking. Eat less mammals. Reuse and recycle. Use Beano.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 12:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 4:09 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 214 of 762 (863391)
09-25-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
09-25-2019 12:25 PM


Re: We don't need to get hysterical about climate change, it only makes things worse
Taq writes:
Reforestation doesn't reduce carbon emissions.
Greenery consumes carbon dioxide and gives off oxygen.
Non sequitur. Why are you trying to change the subject? Evasive much?
Plants are not responsible for carbon emissions, but rather can serve to reverse that process. Deforestation does not increase carbon emissions, outside of the smoke from burning down the forests. Reforestation will do nothing to reduce carbon emissions, but rather would help to reduce the effects of carbon emissions (albeit not enough).
Think of the earth as a ship at sea. Think of the carbon emissions as a hole in the hull. Thinking of the increasing carbon levels as the amount of water rushing in through that hole threatening to sink the ship and drown us all.
Now think of plants, your "greenery", as pumps working to pump that water out of the ship, trying to keep us afloat and alive. They're keeping us afloat longer and could counter small leaks effectively, but they're no match for that gaping hole in the hull, a hole that keeps getting ever bigger.
Now think of deforestation as the act of not only shutting down those pumps, but also tearing them out and dumping them overboard. Suicide, basically.
Finally, think of reforestation as reinstalling pumps and working to get them back on-line and pumping again. Not only will those new pumps not be enough to save the ship, but there's also all that extra water they have to deal with that had rushed in in the meantime.
Now are you beginning to understand?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 12:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 4:03 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 215 of 762 (863394)
09-25-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 1:53 AM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
The overwhelming case is abuse, which is a real shame considering there are still millions who actually do need a legitimate helping hand.
Your source does not support your assertions. The source actually expresses the need for these programs.
quote:
Although a $1 trillion a year budget may seem large at first glance, the current welfare program consisting of 79 separate programs supporting 21 percent of Americans puts the large problem of poverty into perspective. Without any government safety nets, those living in poverty would not have the proper help to survive or tools to get back on their feet.
Sounds about as ferocious as a tampon commercial.
I see you are burnishing your alt-right credentials with flippant misogyny.
You'd rather have everyone be poor so we can all eat a shit sandwich equally. I understand.
Aw now the strawman and misrepresentations. You must be proud of yourself.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 1:53 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 216 of 762 (863395)
09-25-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 2:04 AM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Hyroglyphx writes:
Then maybe you find it ironic how the poorest people also happen to be the fattest people.
It isn't ironic at all. The unhealthy foods are cheapest because the manufacturers don't have to put as much effort into them. Just plowing them full of preservatives so they'll last forever on the shelf is more profitable.
Hyroglyphx writes:
What its really called is "bad life choices."
Bad life choices are not restricted to the poor. We don't have to let people go hungry because they made bad choices in the past.
Hyroglyphx writes:
... the lion doesn't ask permission to feed its young. It sees its need and it goes out and gets it.
Yes, that's the conservative way - grab what you can. The poor are just a resource for the rich to use as they see fit, without asking anybody's permission.
Hyroglyphx writes:
And, yes, some people do need social programs and charities. I'm distinguishing from the ones that don't and who selfishly and needlessly pilfer from those who do.
You're jumping to conclusions about which ones have a genuine need and which ones do not.

Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:04 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 217 of 762 (863396)
09-25-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Hyroglyphx
09-25-2019 2:04 AM


Re: A Couple Clarifications
Then maybe you find it ironic how the poorest people also happen to be the fattest people.
Data please?
Also, you are familiar with the term "food desert" aren't you?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:04 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 218 of 762 (863402)
09-25-2019 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by dwise1
09-25-2019 2:50 PM


Re: We don't need to get hysterical about climate change, it only makes things worse
Plants are not responsible for carbon emissions, but rather can serve to reverse that process. Deforestation does not increase carbon emissions, outside of the smoke from burning down the forests. Reforestation will do nothing to reduce carbon emissions, but rather would help to reduce the effects of carbon emissions (albeit not enough).
That's all I was saying, Trees and other plants would remove some of the CO2 and replenish some of the O2. You say it's not enough. OK, it's not enough. But it's something, and the more plants the better. No plants will get us nothing.
Besides, greenery is lovely, we can always use lots more of it. It breaks down and makes organic food for more plants, and trees could bring back the birds. If we get rid of the windmills and the solar panels that kill them and do something to keep the plate glass window and the housecats from killing them. Educating about the problems, getting people working on them, producing inventions and methods.
And nothing is stopping anyone from proposing or working on other kinds of solutions to the carbon emissions as well.
But scientists don't know everything and motivating the average person is probably not their forte. I think that focusing so emphatically on the global problems of climate change and the Extinction is counterproductive. Most people can't follow the science, but there are plenty of consequences related to these larger problems that we CAN get across to people along with proposals for practical solutions. People love to cooperate on good projects, we don't need to hammer on the heavier kinds of science.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by dwise1, posted 09-25-2019 2:50 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Taq, posted 09-25-2019 4:33 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 219 of 762 (863403)
09-25-2019 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by AZPaul3
09-25-2019 1:25 PM


Re: Methane problem
You're already said you have no hope for anything to change so I assume you have no hope for these proposals either. I'm looking for something we could make work. Even your proposals could work if those who believe in them put in the necessary commitment to persuade people or whatever else it takes. Without the browbeating and the scientific rankpulling and the disdain.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by AZPaul3, posted 09-25-2019 1:25 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by AZPaul3, posted 09-25-2019 7:12 PM Faith has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 220 of 762 (863404)
09-25-2019 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
09-25-2019 4:03 PM


Re: We don't need to get hysterical about climate change, it only makes things worse
Faith writes:
That's all I was saying, Trees and other plants would remove some of the CO2 and replenish some of the O2. You say it's not enough. OK, it's not enough. But it's something, and the more plants the better. No plants will get us nothing.
It's a band-aid on a head wound. If we are going to fix the actual problem, reforestation ain't it. The oceans make up the vast majority of both carbon fixation and oxygen production, in case you were wondering.
If we get rid of the windmills and the solar panels that kill them and do something to keep the plate glass window and the housecats from killing them. Educating about the problems, getting people working on them, producing inventions and methods.
Increasing the bird population will do nothing to reverse climate change.
And nothing is stopping anyone from proposing or working on other kinds of solutions to the carbon emissions as well.
The Trump administration is stopping research on this front. In fact, they are trying to stop scientists from even saying that carbon emissions are to blame for climate change.
But scientists don't know everything and motivating the average person is probably not their forte. I think that focusing so emphatically on the global problems of climate change and the Extinction is counterproductive. Most people can't follow the science, but there are plenty of consequences related to these larger problems that we CAN get across to people along with proposals for practical solutions. People love to cooperate on good projects, we don't need to hammer on the heavier kinds of science.
Conservatives seem to be motivated by whatever Trump says. Trump is saying that CO2 has nothing to do with climate change. That's a massive problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 4:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 4:37 PM Taq has replied
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 4:43 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 5:12 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 221 of 762 (863405)
09-25-2019 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Taq
09-25-2019 4:33 PM


Re: We don't need to get hysterical about climate change, it only makes things worse
Oh of course it's all Trump's fault. So let's all lie down and die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Taq, posted 09-25-2019 4:33 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by ringo, posted 09-25-2019 4:42 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 224 by Taq, posted 09-25-2019 5:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 222 of 762 (863406)
09-25-2019 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Faith
09-25-2019 4:37 PM


Re: We don't need to get hysterical about climate change, it only makes things worse
Faith writes:
Oh of course it's all Trump's fault. So let's all lie down and die.
A more constructive approach would be to help get rid of Trump.

Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 4:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 223 of 762 (863407)
09-25-2019 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Taq
09-25-2019 4:33 PM


Re: We don't need to get hysterical about climate change, it only makes things worse
I'm trying to address more than one issue that has come up. The bird population is a different problem. I'm assuming we'd like to bring them back, and any other species that are depopulating, whatever we do about the other problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Taq, posted 09-25-2019 4:33 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 224 of 762 (863409)
09-25-2019 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Faith
09-25-2019 4:37 PM


Re: We don't need to get hysterical about climate change, it only makes things worse
Faith writes:
Oh of course it's all Trump's fault. So let's all lie down and die.
Where do you get this stuff from? Where has anyone stated that we should all lie down and die?
I find it rather stunning that a conservative like yourself would be completely unaware of the Republican party actively stopping research on climate change, and trying to dissuade people from accepting the science. The only way this is going to stop is if conservative voters start getting angry about it, and letting their elected officials know about it. What I am saying is stand up and let your voice be heard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 09-25-2019 4:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 225 of 762 (863412)
09-25-2019 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Taq
09-25-2019 4:33 PM


Re: We don't need to get hysterical about climate change, it only makes things worse
I don't want to focus on climate change per se, I want to identify problems we can recognize that may or may not be related to climate change, and on a level the average person might be able to care about. Too much carbon dioxide for instance. The depopulation or extinction of various species for instance.
I was just watching a documentary on the Sixth or Holocene Extinction and of course it gives me an epistemological headache as it were, because of my belief in the Biblical view of history. I can certainly accept that people are causing extinctions but I can do without the historical framework about the supposed previous extinction events that just makes me roll my eyes so hard they threaten to pop out of my head.
We don't need to care what Trump or anyone thinks of climate change, but surely we can understand if there is too much CO2 in the atmosphere, or the fact that there is an enormous decrease in the bird population or any other population. Or that the ice caps are smaller than they used to be, and so on and so forth. (My own view is that we are MOSTLY seeing the recession of the ONE ice age that was caused by the Flood but my opinion isn't relevant either as i'm thinking about all this. Again I think the average person needs to focus on separate events and given some role to play on our everyday level, whatever that role might be because that's the level we'll get motivated on. Saving the whole planet is a little beyond our mental range.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Taq, posted 09-25-2019 4:33 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Taq, posted 09-25-2019 5:36 PM Faith has replied

  
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