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Author Topic:   Jesus Among Secular Gods
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1 of 94 (862947)
09-17-2019 1:11 PM


I am currently reading this book. Ravi Zacharias writes some of it and Vince Vitale the rest.(4 chapters each, I believe)

Allow me to review it Chapter by Chapter as I read.
Chapter One-Altars Against God-
The issue of the New Atheists and the stereotypical "angry atheist" is mentioned, with a fair acknowledgment that many opponents in the pulpit are also angry and judgemental. Notable quotes:

quote:
A questioner at a gathering in Washington, DC, once asked Richard Dawkins how one should respond to a person who believed in God. “Mock them,” he actually replied. “Ridicule them.”
In an interview in The Independent with Maya Oppenheim (May 23, 2016), he said, “I’m all for offending people’s religion. It should be offended at every opportunity.”1

Zacharias, Ravi (2017-01-02T22:58:59). Jesus Among Secular Gods . FaithWords. Kindle Edition.


It reminds me of the behavior of some at this forum. *cough* jar...*cough* But to be fair, jar makes a case for ridiculing Biblical Christianity and Apologetics rather than Jesus or God....though he has mentioned that Jesus was far from perfect(supported by selected scripture) and that God was often portrayed as learning on the job. The apologetic argument in Chapter One essentially says that the new Atheism routinely ridicules the ideas of modern believers.
quote:
He (Dawkins) derides the attributes of God by making a caricature of Him but justifies the same attributes in himself without caricature. I would rather trust the judgments of a good and gracious person than one who spends his time and energy in mocking people and their sacred beliefs.
jar may well argue that he is simply pointing out what the book says and that he has no agenda. I would argue that the overall agenda...from New Atheists and Logic Reason and Reality focused Jewish Christians is to reclaim religion as an intellectual, rather than spiritual pursuit. ringo asks again and again what these guys think of genesis 3 (that being the acid test of their sincerity) but how did we ever come to agree on what is honest versus what is dishonest? To the authors credit, they say this:
quote:
Need I add, not all atheists have the same disposition. In fact, many find the hostility of the new atheists an embarrassment. I have met many a cordial conversationalist who is atheistic in his or her belief, and we’ve had the best of conversations. Many have remarked that they have been able to take only so much of Dawkins and his followers and then stopped even reading them. Whatever worldview we espouse, dialogue and debate should take place with civility and courteous listening. But our times make that ideal so elusive. ourselves. In his book The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom, Robert Morey points out the seven leaps atheists have to explain: How… Everything ultimately came from Nothing Order came from Chaos Harmony came from Discord Life came from Nonlife Reason came from Irrationality Personality came from Non-personality Morality came from Amorality3 But more than that needs to be asserted. The questions in life are not just in the sciences. They are not just of mathematical or empirical measurement.

Zacharias, Ravi (2017-01-02T22:58:59). Jesus Among Secular Gods. FaithWords. Kindle Edition.


I especially liked the idea that not everything can be measured scientifically nor defined rationally according to strict logic. Belief should be respected, and philosophy can have power to change the world we live in. The issue in this book is what the various philosophies out there are and in what way they differ from the message that Jesus preached. More Later.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by ringo, posted 09-17-2019 1:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 3 by GDR, posted 09-18-2019 4:12 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 4 of 94 (863332)
09-24-2019 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by GDR
09-18-2019 4:12 PM


Barker on the Matter of Honesty
GDR writes:

I'm curious about what the answer is that you think ringo is looking for.

I would imagine that he is on the lookout for someone--anyone--who can read the scripture plainly and without adding to or interpreting it arrive at the same conclusion which he and jar see as obvious. Regarding the question of honesty, I am reading both Dan Barkers and Ravi & Vince Vitales books concurrently. I see no reason to conclude that either side is being dishonest, though Barker says in his book the following:
quote:
Someone once objected to my criticisms as attempts to “explain away” the proofs for a god. I am not trying to explain them away; I am trying to explain them. The success of this rational approach hinges on something that in theory everyone advocates, but in practice is quite elusive: a complete impartiality on both sides. I am willing to change my mind, but I don’t see many believers admitting even the possibility that they might be wrong—that they are the ones with the problem. Believers are usually only concerned with winning me to their views. Impartiality, which is adequate for mundane matters, seems always to cave into loyalty when religious matters are discussed. Since most believers’ religious views are something of an extension (or sometimes a replacement) of their personality, when you question their beliefs you are often perceived as attacking them personally—their identity within their religious culture and their meaning in life, moral code, honor, intelligence, judgment and everything they are as individuals. (“How dare you tell me that my loving grandmother lived her entire life believing a lie!”) Most of them have invested a lot of time, energy and money in their faith, and they aren’t apt to back off or “lose face.” They would rather earn devotion points within their co-believing community than give any credibility to some Lone Ranger atheist. Of course, none of this proves or disproves either position. If it did, that would be ad hominem. Christians may be loyal and dishonest, but they still may be correct. Atheists might be rational and honest, but they might be wrong. The lack of impartiality of most believers merely underlines the difficulty of dialogue with atheists.

(Barker, Dan. Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists (p. 93). Ulysses Press. Kindle Edition.)

I will admit that I am impressed and perhaps more curious about Barker's book than I am about Zacharias and Vitale. Both sides make some great arguments and I am beginning to get a glimpse into jars whole recommendation to "throw God away". Not that I ever will...

But I think that reading both sides (or many sides) of an issue such as belief, apologetics, and critical thinking and reasoned argumentation can only strengthen my overall understanding.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : concurrently rather than concordantly


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by GDR, posted 09-18-2019 4:12 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 09-24-2019 10:19 PM Phat has responded
 Message 8 by GDR, posted 09-25-2019 11:00 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 7 of 94 (863341)
09-25-2019 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
09-24-2019 10:19 PM


Re: Barker on the Matter of Honesty
...Because you refuse to discuss their arguments.
Because we have two ways of approaching scripture.
One side uses Faith.
The other side uses evidence.
You claim that there is no *evidence* that God is doing anything or involved in any way. We believe that He is. We only have subjective impressions...not any objective evidence. Dan Barker and Ravi Zacharias and Vince Vitale discuss their respective opinions on this subject in their respective books. I can discuss the arguments in the book of this topic. I will discuss the counter-arguments in the Godless topic.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 09-24-2019 10:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 09-25-2019 3:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 25 of 94 (863475)
09-26-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
09-26-2019 7:47 AM


Re: what jar has said.
GDR writes:

As a Christian don't you think that you can look at Jesus to give you an understanding of God?

I do. jar seems more Jewish than Christian, though he insists he belongs to a club.
jar writes:

The story of Jesus can give us an understanding of what it means to be a human.

How? It looks more like a charge. And I might ask: A charge from Whom? This whole idea of personal responsibility and doing your best came from Judaism.

jar writes:

I believe there is a GOD and that there is life after death and I will be judged based on how I have lived my life.

Yup. Very Jewish. Not that this is wrong, mind you. Christians need Judaism to keep their fantasies in check.

The whole idea of throwing God away is debatable, however. You can't throw reality away.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 7:47 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 11:20 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 28 of 94 (863480)
09-26-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
09-26-2019 11:20 AM


Canon Fodder
So if they were forming a canon to revise todays NKJV,NIV, and ESV versions of the Bible, would you suggest that they throw away the Gospel of John, or would you let it stay as part of the readings?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 11:20 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 12:10 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 29 of 94 (863481)
09-26-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
09-25-2019 10:02 PM


Re: what jar has said.
jar writes:

...what I am saying is that so far no one has ever presented any way to actually identify or test to show something is supernatural. I believe GOD exists but understand that is simply a belief with no supporting evidence. Nor do I see any way anyone alive could ever even produce such evidence.

The point is that many believe that the supernatural is a part of reality, despite no (Objective) evidence. Do you find the idea of a supernatural God laughable? Is your belief formed soley through evidence? What specifically about the God that is marketed by today's apologists do you find objectionable?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 09-25-2019 10:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 12:22 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 31 of 94 (863485)
09-26-2019 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
09-26-2019 12:10 PM


Re: Canon Fodder
Why dont the apologists admit the evidence for the redactors?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 12:10 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 38 of 94 (863562)
09-27-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
09-26-2019 12:22 PM


Re: what jar has said.
But what if they happened to be right? Perhaps even unknowingly? I think the point I am trying to make is that you cant put the Gods humans create in a box. Evidence is not the only method in finding truth...though it does provide us with information. If any of the God characters that humans describe actual;ly end up being similar to The Original(and One and only) then the reason, in my mind, is because of GOD not us finding the magic mystery.

You likely will then ask me why GOD should care any more about me than pond scum. I suppose that if I lay my fantasies and claims of entitlement and exclusivity on the Altar, I would agree with you. Why Should He? But I will ask you What If He Does? What if the ignorant Biblical Christians happened to be right? The issue at that point is your response to such a loving presence. You have said before that you would likely laugh. But would you cry? Be angry? Ask more questions and never settle for what you see? Or would you do as Billy Graham might have suggested and just simply surrender?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 12:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 12:07 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 40 of 94 (863582)
09-27-2019 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
09-27-2019 12:07 PM


Re: what jar has said.
You ask absurd questions that of course have no honest answer beyond "I don't know but I certainly hope I would not simply surrender like an abject coward."
No wonder you never got saved. j/k...I respect your arguments though they always challenge me.

So let me get this straight:

  • GOD is unknowable (despite Jesus) and there is no way to have evidence that GOD or Jesus ever existed. But according to you, it matters little...we still have mythos and tales told round the campfire!
  • Surrendering to God or Jesus..which is at best metaphorical...is cowardly. Standing up and assuming responsibility is the way to go. Entitlement, favor, and chosen people are all lies.

    Interesting...

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 12:07 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 1:08 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 43 of 94 (863590)
    09-27-2019 3:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by jar
    09-27-2019 1:08 PM


    Re: what jar has said.
    jar writes:

    Simply surrendering to an all-powerful despot is cowardly.

    I see no evidence that surrendering one's mind and heart to Jesus is in any way cowardly. Nor do I see that Jesus can be properly defined as a despot.

    Google Dictionary writes:

    despot: a ruler or other person who holds absolute power, typically one who exercises it in a cruel or oppressive way.
    tyrant dictator absolute ruler totalitarian authoritarian autocrat oppressor autarch monocrat

    jar writes:

    What I have said is that so far absolutely no one has ever presented either evidence of the existence of GOD or Jesus or any way that it might be possible to know GOD or Jesus.

    If someone can present the model, process, method, mechanism or procedure to do such things then we could begin testing.

    That likely won't happen. Besides, scripture suggests that though all are called, few choose. Many will go about bleating "Lord, Lord" after the fact...when the sky is falling...but they will seek Him due to fear and not due to a desire to know Him. There are many, however, who have good hearts and who do what He commanded even though they have no profession of faith or belief for Him. The mainstream church never teaches that all are or will be saved. God, Himself may just overrule that belief.

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : appallin spallin


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 1:08 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 4:15 PM Phat has responded
     Message 46 by ringo, posted 09-27-2019 5:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 45 of 94 (863601)
    09-27-2019 4:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 44 by jar
    09-27-2019 4:15 PM


    Re: what jar has said.
    jar writes:

    Do you see Jesus as holding absolute power?

    This is an interesting question. I will just share my thoughts...
    I believe that GOD has absolute power. GOD has power in that through Him all things came into being. Either directly or indirectly. I also believe that Jesus is Gods character. While I will agree with you that he was human while on earth...and holding no power of his own, he could have called angels to help him...the devil even wanted him to turn stones into bread...which technically he may have been able to do...but at what cost? The lesson seems to be to humble oneself rather than exalt oneself. We are called to be imitators of Jesus and take up LaCrosse.

    Now that He has died and risn again, (according to belief) He may well be able to exercise absolute power in the same way that GOD always has been able to do. Yet even GOD allowed Lucifer to freely choose to become Satan. Critics would say that GOD blew it...and that perhaps He was simply learning on the job...when in reality it has always been *we* who are learning on the job, passing our wisdom and experience down through the generations. (or having History record our mistakes and blunders and letting whosoever shall learn from our mistakes.

    So to answer the question in context, Jesus does have absolute power and knows when and when not to apply it. I highly doubt that He will use it to re-elect Donald trump nor make America great again. I suspect that He knows how hard each of us tries and does on a daily basis---with perfect knowledge--and that someday he may say "It Is Finished". But that call is on Him and not I. My only responsibility is to try and do my best every day and to not simply throw Him away and forget the communion which we have.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 4:15 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 47 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 6:44 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 57 of 94 (863752)
    09-30-2019 3:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by jar
    09-27-2019 6:44 PM


    Re: what jar has said.
    jar writes:

    If he has absolute power than he is by definition a despot.

    Call Him what you want. The very fact that such a powerful Creator would even let you speak your mind indicates to me that though His power may be absolute, so too is His Mercy. The only definition of despot that fits Him is the all-powerful part. Only satan would even put such an independent thought in your mind. Assuming, however, for the sake of an argument that Satan was created foreknowingly by GOD, there logically is a purpose for the fallen deceiver. Perhaps we are foreknowingly meant to challenge and question GOD on a daily basis. I need to throw some of what I was taught away in order to explore these types of questions.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 6:44 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by jar, posted 09-30-2019 9:08 AM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 59 of 94 (863793)
    09-30-2019 12:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 58 by jar
    09-30-2019 9:08 AM


    Re: what jar has said.
    One in what way? As simple as changing costumes or pronouns? If so, why bother dividing up a monotheistic concept? Why not divide Allah into Allah Most Merciful, Junior, and the spook?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 58 by jar, posted 09-30-2019 9:08 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by jar, posted 09-30-2019 9:38 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 61 of 94 (863830)
    10-01-2019 3:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 60 by jar
    09-30-2019 9:38 PM


    Re: what jar has said.
    jar writes:

    To claim Jesus is God needs qualifiers such as Jesus is God but not the God of Genesis 1 or the God of Genesis 2&3 or the God of the Exodus saga or ... (the list goes on).

    Well at least we are beginning to see common ground, but we do disagree in many aspects of belief. Jesus has eternally existed, in my belief, and was fully human while on earth. He could have called on angels at any time to help him, but evidently wanted to accept full responsibility for showing humans what could be done.

    Do you agree that GOD is good, or do you continue to assert the belief that GOD is complete? Is the God of Judaism any different than the God of Christianity? If so, please elaborate.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 60 by jar, posted 09-30-2019 9:38 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 62 by jar, posted 10-01-2019 3:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 64 of 94 (863943)
    10-03-2019 2:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
    10-02-2019 7:08 PM


    Re: what jar has said.
    GDR writes:

    If we use God as embodied by Jesus as the lens we can then read through the 66 different books that make up the Bible and understand where the writers got it wrong and where they got it more or less right. The whole Biblical narrative provides the story of a progressive understanding of the nature of God climaxing in Jesus.

    . I agree with GDR on this assessment. And I'm talking GOD here, in case you were wondering, jar. Trying to relate to GOD would be like trying to commune with a cloud or become one with a forest. One can get closer through denying the flesh, fasting, meditation, and focus ion noble thoughts and deeds. Obeying the charge to feed, clothe, and comfort the least of these is progressive understanding through doing. (and no, ringo...I've not thrown the book away.)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by GDR, posted 10-02-2019 7:08 PM GDR has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by jar, posted 10-03-2019 3:59 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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