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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 256 of 762 (863514)
09-26-2019 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by jar
09-26-2019 7:15 PM


Funny all you true believers in the climate disaster don't act like you believe it
We should be afraid you say, it may be too late you say. But here is the weird unreality I was talking about. Even all you who are supposedly complete believers in this coming catastrophe don't ACT LIKE you believe it. AZ chides us for being concerned about our cold chardonnay but I bet he is too. He's worried about what his grandchildren are going to be facing but is he doing anything about it or does it not matter they're going to be dead anyway or what? I'm not in a position to do much, no money, physical problems, but those who don't have such problems should have some options and yet where is the massive change in lifestyle we should expect of them?
Taq says there are millions of people who believe in this coming catastrophe but my guess is that most of them are acting like they don't believe it either, just going on with life as usual, getting their Starbucks fix or hanging out at the bar, buying a new car, fixing up their house that isn't designed to handle intense weather, taking a cruise, taking a vacation, or whatever.
If you're all going to criticize those who aren't totally on board with the climate change idea, you might get farther with us if you were acting like it mattered to YOU. Instead you're all on threads about all kinds of other things as if life is going to go on forever and this topic gets brought up as just another little side issue.
Cognitive dissonance I'd call it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 7:15 PM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 762 (863516)
09-26-2019 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
09-26-2019 7:12 PM


Water conservation
Water reserves should be top priority I agree. This last winter we had such a huge snowpack in the Sierra the reservoirs were overflowing, but that was a rare winter. Who was talking about collecting rainwater recently? California? They should, we in Nevada should. All through the Bible they talk about "cisterns" where they collected water. But as usual we all act like there is no need to think about the future, though again if anybody is REALLY convinced we're facing a global weather meltdown it would certainly be a good idea. But all it takes is a big winter to replenish the supplies. That's nice to know.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 7:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 8:57 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 258 of 762 (863517)
09-26-2019 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
09-26-2019 8:45 PM


Re: Water conservation
Actually no, it does not even touch replenishing the supplies.
Our primary source for water is the various aquifers and it takes tens of thousands of years to replenish them. We have been pumping so much water out of those sources that whole cities are sinking and the aquifers themselves becoming poisoned by salt water intrusion.
Faith, this is not news. It's been widely reported for at least forty years and if it's news to someone it's because they chose to remain ignorant.
Water from snow pack ends up doing damage and in the Gulf of Mexico. Sure a very small amout recharges a few reservoirs but the vast majority ends up as floods or simply draining into the seas.
Thinking "all it takes is a big winter to replenish the supplies" is simply stupid.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 09-26-2019 8:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 09-26-2019 9:03 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 259 of 762 (863518)
09-26-2019 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by jar
09-26-2019 8:57 PM


The cognitive dissonance
Oh goody goody, it's too late there's nothing we can do. I'll just console myself with a quad venti latte, maybe a hot dog from Costco.
And again, why are you complaining to me when there are supposedly millions of you true believers who could have been making all the necessary preparations for decades that you complain haven't been made? Why wait around for Big Carbon to change, there are plenty of things the average person could have been doing and the more doing them the more influence you'd have on the holdouts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 8:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 09-26-2019 10:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(4)
Message 260 of 762 (863519)
09-26-2019 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
09-26-2019 9:03 PM


Re: The cognitive dissonance
We did. We spread the word, pleaded for Congress to take action, Pleaded for better use of water and to use less fossil fuels and all of you simply stuck your collective heads up your asses and said, nope, ain't doing nuttin.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 09-26-2019 9:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 261 of 762 (863522)
09-27-2019 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Faith
09-26-2019 7:20 PM


Re: some less painful steps the US could take.
What problems are they going to cause? Cancer?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 09-26-2019 7:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 8:10 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 262 of 762 (863525)
09-27-2019 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Phat
09-26-2019 5:01 PM


Re: Find Reality (then throw it away)
Phat writes:
And I won't let organized religion brainwash me. If anything, I will be the one doing the brainwashing!
You said Phat, you're fully there now.
But you need to ask yourself why god would abandon a believer?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Phat, posted 09-26-2019 5:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 3:48 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 263 of 762 (863528)
09-27-2019 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Tangle
09-27-2019 2:35 AM


Re: Find Reality (then throw it away)
...But you need to ask yourself why god would abandon a believer?
First off, who is this believer?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Tangle, posted 09-27-2019 2:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Tangle, posted 09-27-2019 6:59 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 264 of 762 (863532)
09-27-2019 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Phat
09-27-2019 3:48 AM


Re: Find Reality (then throw it away)
Phat writes:
But you need to ask yourself why god would abandon a believer?
Well that would be me. Most atheists started with a belief you know. We couldn't help but believe, we were indoctrinated like everyone else.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 09-27-2019 3:48 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by dwise1, posted 09-27-2019 7:56 AM Tangle has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 265 of 762 (863533)
09-27-2019 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Tangle
09-27-2019 6:59 AM


Re: Find Reality (then throw it away)
Most atheists started with a belief you know. We couldn't help but believe, we were indoctrinated like everyone else.
Which is one reason why almost every atheist has a different perspective. Different forms and extents of religious indoctrination in our youth. Different experiences leading us to start to question our indoctrination. Different responses to our questionings and our own different responses to those responses of others. Plus the influence of the experiences and thoughts of other atheists. I believe that the form of each of our individual atheisms are shaped or at least strongly influenced by those factors.
What theists think of atheism is largely a mystery. For one thing, it far too often proves nearly impossible to discuss theists' ideas about atheism with theists. They have their own beliefs about atheism, most of them false, but which seems to be very important to them -- eg, how could anyone who had accepted Christ in his heart ever become an atheist (eg, Dan Barker) and because that violates the belief that theist was taught that that would be impossible therefore that atheist never was a "true Christian" to begin with, etc, etc, etc, in a frantic effort to define that negative evidence against the theist's beliefs away.
For literally decades I've been trying to engage creationists in discussion. All they ever want to do is attack, attack, attack, and convert me. How could anyone ever have a discussion with such people?
Example: The arguments over the evolution of the eye. The main creationist arguments against that is that you need to have every piece in place being functional every step of the way. The classic creationist model is to take a modern mammalian eye and take a razor blade to it cutting pieces away thus rendering that eye inoperative. What good is an eye without a retina (the part that most commonly is first to get excised)? Without a lens? Etc. The argument boils down to the extreme improbability of each of those essential parts of the eye all evolving independently and just happening to come together in the end with something that's actually useful.
Of course, that is not at all how the eye would have evolved. In The Blind Watchmaker Richard Dawkins followed the exact same line of reasoning that Charles Darwin himself had followed in On The Origin of Species regarding the evolution of complex organs. Start with a photo-sensitive cell with a single nerve attached to it, which would confer some benefit. Expand that patch of photo-sensitive cells along with neural support and that would confer more benefit. Form a pit for those photo-sensitive cells and you can get directional information. And so on and so on (go read the sources; I'm not going to transcribe everything here) with the nascent eye being functional every step of the way. IOW, the creationist model of the evolution of the eye is nonsense so of course it fails, whereas the evolutionary model not only makes sense but also is able to succeed. The creationists require that the model must fail, so they ensure that it does by presenting a nonsensical model.
A co-worker (before I retired) mentioned that the probability of the eye evolving was extremely small, so I tried to discuss it with him. At first I tried to determine whether he was using the razor-blade model, but I couldn't even get that far. At every step of the way, he kept trying to turn the discussion into an argument. I finally had to give up.
Just to make my definitions clear. A discussion is an exchange of ideas, an opportunity to share ideas so that both sides can understand each other better. An argument is an attempt to convince the other side. They are not interested in discussion, but only in argument.
Edited by dwise1, : Question mark added where needed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Tangle, posted 09-27-2019 6:59 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 8:40 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 266 of 762 (863534)
09-27-2019 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Theodoric
09-27-2019 2:09 AM


Wind and Solar problems.
Wind and solar farms both kill birds. They fly into the turbines and they get fried by the intense heat rising from the solar panels when they fly over them. One of our extinction problems is the bird population. There are other reasons for its decline but there are huge areas of these farms in some places and if they keep adding more of them we'll have a continuing decrease in the bird population.
Other causes I also discussed of the decrease in bird numbers are plate glass windows and housecats. These make enough of a difference to be included in discussions of the problem, though the wind and solar problem isn't getting discussed as it should be. Other causes are loss of habitat which I figure might be mitigated some if we plant more trees, and insecticide use.
I brought this problem up in Message 202 and Message 234. I also suggested that since the heat from the solar farms is intense enough to kill birds it must be putting out a lot of heat into the atmosphere that we certainly don't need if our problem is global warming.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2019 2:09 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 8:29 AM Faith has replied
 Message 277 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2019 10:17 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 267 of 762 (863535)
09-27-2019 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
09-27-2019 8:10 AM


Re: Wind and Solar problems.
Stop listening to the lies from the Fossil Fuel cult and nut jobs.
Actually look at some wind turbines in motion and see just how slowly the blades are really turning. Go to a solar farm and see just how much heat is being radiated back out into space. Stop and think.
Birds are simply the canary in the cage; they are a visible warning. What is threatening them as with almost every other species is global warming; chemical poisoning and destruction of habitat.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 8:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 8:45 AM jar has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 268 of 762 (863536)
09-27-2019 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by dwise1
09-27-2019 7:56 AM


Re: Find Reality (then throw it away)
If you want to know what one theist thinks I figure atheism is a reasonable default position since we have no way of detecting spiritual entities by the scientific means that are held up as THE way we know anything.
I was sent to church as a kid and more or less believed in God as a result although I really didn't learn much of the theology. At fifteen I met some sophisticated intellectual atheist kids who ridiculed religion, and we were all in a class where the teacher ridiculed religion, so I simply gave up what slender belief I had and became a fairly aggressive atheist for the next thirty years. Until I started reading books on all the religions and ended up a Christian.
Now as a believer I think the complexity of living things ought to show they had to have an intelligent creator, but I didn't have that view as an atheist so I can't expect others to have it.
As for the evolution of the eye, it seems to me that trial and error is the method evolution would have to use to get from one viable form of the eye to another. These different forms are found all over the taxonomic tree and in my view were designed for their particular purpose where they exist. But although it can be seen how one form could have changed in this or that way to turn it into another in a series of growing complexities, there is no way mutations are going to produce the necessary changes in the time frames allotted, and there should be so many failed mutations they'd be uncountable.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : Create paragraph I was sent...
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by dwise1, posted 09-27-2019 7:56 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by dwise1, posted 09-27-2019 10:13 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 269 of 762 (863538)
09-27-2019 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
09-27-2019 8:29 AM


Re: Wind and Solar problems.
Why do you assume I got my iformation from the anticlimate change people? I never said that and I don't know the sources. How about YOU go to those farms and count how many dead birds you find?\
And I got the information about how plate glass windows and housecats account for a big decrease in the bird population from a liberal friend I was discussing these things with a few days ago. She looked up an article on the subject and read it to me. The windows and housecats were listed along with the insecticide and loss of habitat, as apparently a large enough cause of the loss of birds to be taken very seriously. Manufacturing changes for window glass are being tried, but the great proliferation of housecats probably needs a media blitz to lessen the problem.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 267 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 8:29 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by JoeT, posted 09-27-2019 9:59 AM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 270 of 762 (863539)
09-27-2019 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
09-27-2019 8:29 AM


Yikes, CATS are the biggest killer of birds
Found the following on a Google search of "Do wind and solar farms kill birds?" . Turns out cell and radio towers are a bigger killer of birds than turbines (though I'd say the turbine deaths will probably increase as wind farms increase), and WOW, CATS KILL BILLIONS, by far the biggest cause of bird deaths. Wow, I guess THAT's where we need to focus bird conservation efforts.
Wind turbines kill between 214,000 and 368,000 birds annually a small fraction compared with the estimated 6.8 million fatalities from collisions with cell and radio towers and the 1.4 billion to 3.7 billion deaths from cats, according to the peer-reviewed study by two federal scientists and the environmental
I then googled solar farms separately. Here's one source.
Yes, birds have died at solar farms most famously at the Ivanpah project in San Bernardino County, where birds have been incinerated as they fly through the "solar flux" reflected by fields of mirrors toward boilers atop three massive towers. But Ivanpah's tower-and-mirror setup is the exception, not the rule. Only two big tower projects have been built in the United States, and it's unclear whether there will be more, in part due to the technology's high costs. Most solar farms use photovoltaic panels like the ones installed on many rooftops, which convert sunlight directly to electricity.
It goes on to say the problem hasn't been studied enough to make any certain assessments.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 09-27-2019 8:29 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 09-27-2019 9:38 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 278 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2019 10:20 AM Faith has replied

  
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